Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

The 50 hour guitar
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=32684		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  The 50 hour guitar
OK guys and gals.......

I have a new idea/concept I am in the process of exploring.

Right now my guitar builds run between 120 and 150 hours-that doesn't count redos-like the time the buffer grabbed the guitar and smashed it on the floor or the time the heel block split or the time I refinished the top 3 times or the time I sanded through the binding (can someone remind me WHY I like guitar making-O yeah I'm a masochist!!) I could go on....

So I am trying to refine my process and build a guitar (consistently) at a much faster (more efficient) rate.

Right now I spend almost 1/3 that time on finishing alone so that is a big time sink,so for example instead of doing a 15 coat buffed nitro job I am thinking of a french polish over varnish.


I am looking for ideas for time saving strategies.

I basically have every woodworking machine in my shop

The guitar I am building will be ladder braced (3 braces and a bridge patch) 4 braces on the back.

I have always glued the braces to the plates then shaped them-I am now going to shape them (Shaper,power sander) first-This is the kind of stuff I am trying to figure out.


Maybe I AM just a masochist......
Author:  Tom West [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
Brad: One thing that helps is to do things in batches. Make a large supply of different parts,linings,neck and tail blocks,join a lot of plates,thickness a lot of sides etc. This tends to cut out start and spot cycles that happen when you just build each part as it is needed. Jigs are another way to save time,but chew up time to make and space to store.And of course you can also work faster....! :P I tend to work in small batches but am a slow worker. My times would be in the 100 to 125 hr. range,so maybe you should not listen to me. Take care.
Tom
Author:  gozierdt [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
I also have most of the woodworking machines in my shop, but I find they only help a small amount. I've found spending the time to make jigs to accomplish specific jobs to be a big help. My main jigs so far are fretboard radiusing jig, end graft jig, neck tenon jig, binding/purfling jig, and inlay pantograph. There are others I'm considering, especially a larger pantograph to shape necks. They do take time to build, but it's given back pretty quickly. Also, dedicating small routers to specific jobs like binding/purfling routing, soundhole/rosette soundboard cutting saves a lot of setup time. I've got 8 routers so far. Take a look at Somogyi's book on building, and you'll see how many jigs and dedicated routers he has. Every one saves time, and as importantly, makes the build process more repeatable. And as stated above, doing batches of parts is a big time-saver because the setup time gets spread over multiple guitars. When I'm making parts now, I always try to make at least two of everything so I'm that much ahead on the next guitar.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
Why do you want to build faster? What are you willing to give up in exchange for speed?
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
Howard Klepper wrote:
Why do you want to build faster? What are you willing to give up in exchange for speed?

I don't have much time left.

I don't want to give up anything in exchange for speed, just build quality instruments (as good as I have built them) faster.

It's taken me 35 years to build 54 guitars-now I want to build that many in 3 and a half years.
Author:  John Mayes [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
i built this guitar (the woodworking that is) in a 2 days span. Almost no sleep, and working like crazy. Not something I recommend for both you and the guitar.

Image

Image
Author:  BobK [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
Brad,

Just my $.02 but I think you already hit upon your biggest potential time saver. Just from a business perspective, based on your current estimate of ~40 hours per guitar, if you can make more than $10/hour building exclusively you should think about subbing out your finishing. And since it sounds like you're interested in leaving a legacy (if that is the appropriate term) rather than it just being a cost/benefit analysis it also means more completed guitars added to your portfolio. Beyond that peruse the Gibson and Martin websites for ideas on how to make the most out of a very limited set of materials, body shapes, construction options and cosmetics. Then build all the jigs and start batch producing parts. There are plenty of talented builders who work at pace much faster than most, and I'm sure you'll find you niche. Best of luck.

Bob
Author:  oval soundhole [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
John Mayes wrote:
i built this guitar (the woodworking that is) in a 2 days span. Almost no sleep, and working like crazy. Not something I recommend for both you and the guitar.

Image

Image



Wow, How did you do that? CA?
Author:  John Mayes [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
oval soundhole wrote:
John Mayes wrote:
i built this guitar (the woodworking that is) in a 2 days span. Almost no sleep, and working like crazy. Not something I recommend for both you and the guitar.

Image

Image



Wow, How did you do that? CA?


Nope. Used titebond. Vacuum wherever possible as that speeds things up. I just had much multi-tasking and nonstop work.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
UV cured polyester finish - that's the way to go - bare wood to shipping in just a few hours.

Vacuum clamping will sorten the glue-up times (with AR "luthier's glue") nicely, just like John says.

Are you sure you want to go this way though? There'll be less of "you" in each guitar. It will show.

Cheers,
Dave F.
Author:  nkforster [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
I found myself in a similar situation a while back. Around the time of the crash I decided it was time to make a quicker and cheaper guitar to reflect the times. I agree with many of the previous comments about identifying what you can strip away without making things worse. It actually turned into a very enjoyable process, and a very creative one. It became an exercise in "letting go". What I came up with was my mode S.

Now customers often order instruments (all models) in the model S style as the time/money saving is significant, they then often spend the savings on upgrading materials. It's all rather sensible.

Whilst ladder braced guitars are great ( I love them) they are less commercially viable. A few makers specialise in them, and they are remarkably good guitars, and amazing value, but it's a small market.

Anyway, here are a few images of my model S style - no back binding, only simple top binding, M+T neck, usually no heel cap, fibre head veneer, simplified strutting (mine is normally laminated) Hope they help.

Now, I've never calculated the time spent on any instruments, mainly out of fear!, but the neck joint went from half a day to half an hour, binding takes no time now, and the end result is not compromised. I think of it as the "racing version" of my standard work.

ImageImage
Image

http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/nkforst ... _book.html
Author:  TonyFrancis [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
Howard Klepper wrote:
Why do you want to build faster? What are you willing to give up in exchange for speed?


What do you gain from speed could also be another good question. There is no doubt in my mind there is a happy middle ground, but its common thought that to get good at something you need to practice a lot, and taking to much time can make things worse!?
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
nkforster wrote:
I found myself in a similar situation a while back. Around the time of the crash I decided it was time to make a quicker and cheaper guitar to reflect the times. I agree with many of the previous comments about identifying what you can strip away without making things worse. It actually turned into a very enjoyable process, and a very creative one. It became an exercise in "letting go". What I came up with was my mode S.

Now customers often order instruments (all models) in the model S style as the time/money saving is significant, they then often spend the savings on upgrading materials. It's all rather sensible.

Whilst ladder braced guitars are great ( I love them) they are less commercially viable. A few makers specialise in them, and they are remarkably good guitars, and amazing value, but it's a small market.

Anyway, here are a few images of my model S style - no back binding, only simple top binding, M+T neck, usually no heel cap, fibre head veneer, simplified strutting (mine is normally laminated) Hope they help.

Now, I've never calculated the time spent on any instruments, mainly out of fear!, but the neck joint went from half a day to half an hour, binding takes no time now, and the end result is not compromised. I think of it as the "racing version" of my standard work.

ImageImage
Image

http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/nkforst ... _book.html


Nigel,
Thank you!
This is the type of thing I was looking for/thinking about-although I am going for a more "traditional" looking instrument.

Sort of the "essence" of guitar.

I still think I want to use binding-1 line.

I don't really care that much about how commercially viable they are-I have no intentions of ever making any money at this-I just like to make them.
Regards,
Brad
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
Todd Stock wrote:
15 coats? I do six and end up with .005 final thickness. Spraying an unthinned, heavy coat on the verge of running every time is my goal...it gives me a mil per coat with 1/3 solids lacquer.


Todd,
I have never sprayed less than about 12 coats.
I thin the lacquer only about 10%
I end up with a 7 mil finish
Author:  SteveCourtright [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
I was in Brune's shop a while back and he handed me a freshly french polished flaminco guitar that he said he just built in a week. Clearly it can be done, but I bet you have to be very focused, use fast curing adhesives, like hide and/or CA, and have all of your techniques tuned up.

As I am sure you know, he and Marshall teach how to do french polish in a day. The results are wonderful, (if you like FP finishes).
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
Iterestingly enough, I have recently been thinking of ways to slow down my builds. Why rush it? I do this because I enjoy it and I want to keep it that way. I have tried to build fast in the past and it ends up making things not too enjoyable. To each his own I guess.
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
Howard Klepper wrote:
Why do you want to build faster? What are you willing to give up in exchange for speed?


Howard, you make the assumption that there is necessarily something to 'give up' in order to build faster. Why is that? What does a guitar loose when the sides were cut with a faster saw, or when the fretboard was radiused using a router jig instead of a sanding block?
Author:  Robert Renick [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
I love the idea of efficiency in woodwork, I guess it is part of who I am shaped by years of maddening deadlines in the wood shop. My own guitar building goals will always have a time in the goal, which may have to become flexible, but building efficiently is a priority.

Some things that I do in my head to improve efficiency are separating out the manager and worker tasks. As a manager I am constantly analyzing how to get more out of the worker, as a worker I am trying to concentrate on the work as the manager laid it out for me, especially since my alter ego manager self is an a-hole and I pretend to hear him barking at me for slacking. It is all very humorous in my head. This may seem silly, but the manager is constantly categorizing and making lists, the manager is also responsible for materials and tools being available for the worker at the right time and place. The manager will delegate responsibilities to departments, and coordinate them to keep work going smoothly. So the design dept. hands off info to the parts dept., when the parts are done they are handed off to assembly, then to the trim dept, sand, finish, set up. Another key for the manager is a daily goal of glue ups, when the workers leave the shop at the end of the day, most clamps should be used up with glue processes drying overnight.

To help reach my personal goal of becoming an efficient builder, I took a class with an efficiency master in the field, Charles Fox. One of the things of note from his shop were not just the plethora of jigs and fixtures for each process, but the detailed instructions written on each. There was no ambiguity, and in his shop where students will use the tools, they can easily make parts with info on the jig. The worker does not get paid to think, but to work, and to me this is bliss, going through processes with comfort and confidence, the masochism or pain of the work is not in the shop, that is in the manager's office and stays there, and I do enjoy that job as well, but much of that work can be done on the kitchen table over morning coffee. So all that to really say that your worker self is just doing his job, to improve efficiency, you likely need a better manager. I hope this makes some sense and is helpful, otherwise that was just a very inefficient use of my time.
Rob
Author:  douglas ingram [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
To my mind its not so much about how fast you can build, but rather, how efficient.

The more you work the faster you get. As in you know what you are after and you just go about getting there without fussing about and screwing around.

If you just like building, then it shouldn't matter how fast you build as you are still building whether its fast or slow. Now, if you prefer getting them completed over just building, that's another story.

Also, completing more guitars just to rack up the numbers is not increasing your accomplishment as a luthier, its just increasing the completed numbers. There needs to be a goal, somewhere, in the completion of more guitars. Only each individual luthier can answer that question for themselves, but we all need to ask it of ourselves.

Standardizing your building, batch processing materials, and simplifying your decorative elements, are the simplest and most effective ways to become faster. But this path leads you to be building basically just one kind of guitar over and over. You may very well get very good at that one guitar, but you had better really, really like that one kind of guitar.

p.s. Rob, looks like we were writing at the same time, both thinking about efficiency.
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
John Mayes wrote:
i built this guitar (the woodworking that is) in a 2 days span. Almost no sleep, and working like crazy. Not something I recommend for both you and the guitar.




Now that we know how, the next question is, WHY?? Beautiful guitar by the way. You can't tell it was built in 48 hours.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
I can have a guitar built in a week but it won't be finished for a month. Doing things in batches is definitely the way to go. If I have my band saw set up to resaw sides for example I'm going to do several of them. I always make a few necks at a time, inlay rosettes, binding, etc... If you build one guitar at a time then you will not be as efficient IMO.
Author:  mcgr40 [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
There have been lots of improvements in the last 30 years in polishing pads/microfinishing papers/compounds(I like 3m imperial/auto type buff supplies) that save alot of time as well as the catalyzed finishesand polyester type sealers(I know,not good for you). Also after the first coat and a half or so, I believe in the heavy "wet" coats- just as described above, where you think it is ready to run. Finishing is not so fun if you spend too much time at it. And remember above all to plan your work and work your plan. I have aways found driving to be the best time for planning my shop activiites for the day(probably not good for health either)-I really think the microfine abrasives and 3m pads/ compounds are as big a time saver as the newer finishes.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
Brad Goodman wrote:
Howard Klepper wrote:
Why do you want to build faster? What are you willing to give up in exchange for speed?

I don't have much time left.

I don't want to give up anything in exchange for speed, just build quality instruments (as good as I have built them) faster.

It's taken me 35 years to build 54 guitars-now I want to build that many in 3 and a half years.


I don't think you are realistic in expecting that there would be no tradeoffs for this leap in speed. And I don't even mean in the fit and finish of the guitars--that can be kept up. But when you limit your design options, jig up, and build them the way a factory does, you will first of all be doing very different work each day from what you now do. And second off, your neatly made guitars will be more factory-like; i.e., have less soul.

Do you have customers for 54 guitars in the next 3.5 years? Do you want to someday leave your widow (or heirs) with dozens of unsold guitars?

I'm 62 and I do understand the sense of having limited time that one gets after 60 or so. I'm grappling with some of the same issues. My inclination is to think the answer, for me at least, lies in another direction. I am not just tossing out rhetorical questions; I am very interested in this discussion, apart from the mechanical answers (which may have been all you were seeking. In that case, I'd suggest a visit to Jim Olson's shop. He's supposed to be receptive to showing other builders around).
Author:  ChuckG [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
Talk to Kent Everett. He used to build 60 guitars a year.
Author:  John Mayes [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 50 hour guitar
Tony_in_NYC wrote:
John Mayes wrote:
i built this guitar (the woodworking that is) in a 2 days span. Almost no sleep, and working like crazy. Not something I recommend for both you and the guitar.




Now that we know how, the next question is, WHY?? Beautiful guitar by the way. You can't tell it was built in 48 hours.



Healdsburg 2005 time crunch.
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/