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Issues with fret level
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=32640		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
Are the frets pulling up out of the fretboard? You could use a fine (.001") feeler gauge under the frets to see if they are seated or not.

I get better results using a fret press compared to hammering them.

How much time do you allow the hide glue to cure before you level the frets?
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
Are these all new guitars? It sounds like that from the first post. It would be easy to check on the next new one, string it up first for a few hours then take the strings off and do the level. If it goes good the first time then everything just needs a little room to find its place after the first shock to the system. That doesn't seem too strange. I have had to go back once in a while and fix a few spots but not every time. I think I go a bit overboard with my fret install though too.

Do you re-check the frets after the buff and polish? I do my levels in a very similar fashion to yours but I switched to 220 on a straight edge then re-crown and then check again with 320 on a straight edge. After the first re-crowning things were not perfect even being careful to file away just the blue. This is a pretty minor thing but it may get compounded a little over all the steps.
Author:  ChuckB [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
You are probably doing this, but just to be clear....when crowning the frets, I leave just the thinnest sliver of blue that I possibly can, that way the crowns alll remain level.

Chuck
Author:  Elman Concepcion [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
Filippo

Do you chamfer the edges of the fret slots and over radius your fret wire before installing it?
Author:  Corky Long [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
Filippo -

Are the high spots in the same place on the fretboard, or all over the place?
I understand your post to state that you see no evidence of frets lifting immediately after hammering the frets in, but only after the fret leveling you see a minute amount of lift.

A couple of thoughts.
Are your fret slots deep enough? In other words, deep enought that they seat fully without grounding out in the slot?
Another thought is that perhaps the slots are a hare too wide for the frets - Allowing the frets to lift a tad once you stress them a little with leveling, etc.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
Are you sure your f.b. is level before fretting?
Mike
Author:  Larry Drover [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
Never assume that your fingerboards are level...I never fret my guitars until I have glued it on the neck..Cover your fingerboard with pencil marks and use a straightedge or a good level with sandpaper glued on the edge and you will be amazed at the humps and hollows...If your fingerboard is not level then you are not going to get level frets...Take the extra time to level, use a fret press and your fret leveling problem should be solved...Larry
Author:  wolfsearcher [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
Filippo Morelli wrote:
I suspect my frets are not seated such that they move around a bit when the neck is moved (by string tension). Once they've moved, they are pretty much where they will be under tension. This would explain why, when I do the second fret level, everything is fine. Any thoughts on that?

Filippo


Hi , Sounds like your on to something
This is the thread ive been waiting for, i was always wondering that their was
a min/max slotsize x fret tang width formula
Ive held out on a fret saw because of this

You mentioned that your bade was 0.0245"
but did you use it for all your fretboards ?
Im gonna shut up now [uncle]
thanks for reading [:Y:]
Author:  Larry Drover [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
Filippo..Can I ask you you....How did you determine that you fret board was level ? Sorry, but I am just a wee bit curious...Larry
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
I think the chamfer is pretty important for proper seating. That could be part of the problem. I usually level the board with the neck on, fret with the StewMac vise grip press as far as I can and then hammer to about 12-13.
Then I support the headstock and put 6 lbs of weight on each shoulder and check the extension. If it has a rise I can sand that off at this point. Then I fret the extension. (Double tenon bolt-on neck)

I don't do the final level until after finish. Once again I support he headstock and add 6 lbs to the shoulders and tighten the truss rod until a notched straightedge shows the neck is flat. Then the magic marker and StewMac bar with 600G.

String up, set the relief, and any touch up is with the sanding flats using L or U channel aluminum. Usually does not need much though.

Since I evolved into this system I've been happy with the result.
Author:  Steve_E [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
Ok, dumb question.

What are you all using to "level" your frets? I've used files, boards with sandpaper, etc. How "flat" does it need to be if you are traveling over frets an anomaly will average out, right? That's a question. My frets on my classicals have always seemed flat and level after I take my oak board with some 220 stuck to it, but I just checked my 19' board and sure enough, it is concave in the middle by ~.02/04. Is that flat enough?

I saw in another thread that Todd mentioned that you can easily make a straight edge. I'm googling that now, but am just wondering if the tolerance for "flat" (within a few thou) is "flat" enough when doing fret work. After all these are guitars that are subject to fluxuations in temp/humidity/tension, etc and not precision machines.

I bet the Padma doesn't even own a straight edge duh.

Please tell me where I'm mistaken. Todd if your reading, can you point me to your "how to make a straight edge" tutorial (hint, hint).
Steve
Author:  David Newton [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
I would posit that it is the depth of the fret slots, and/or the lack of chamfers.

When cutting slots, knowing I'll radius the board, I will "rock" the saw somewhat. I found on a recent board that the center of the slot didn't get cut deep enough.

I chamfer the slots pretty good, but I lay off on the very ends of the slots a bit.
Also I've found that a looser slot is better than a too-tight slot, if you are gluing in. I always pull a doubled piece of 220 grit a couple of times thru the slots.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
Interesting. I can't say I noticed this, but I admit I do not use a rocker. I'll have to keep an eye on this. My procedure so far has been to fret, string it up raw (no way i would have the patience to pimp the frets, I must hear it quick) play it for a week or so and only then file the ends and level. Perhaps the initial playing period allows for that very slight fret pull. I also wick in a healthy dose of CA after hammering, maybe that helps them stay in place.

Regarding the depth, I have a 1/2" fret piece with the bars filed, I carefully check that it sits in well everywhere. I slightly chamfer the entrance with a small file too.
Author:  David Malicky [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
The blade seems to be one of the common variables (unlike neck construction, wood, and fretwire). Maybe it is cutting wide for some reason -- try a different blade?
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
It can only be that the frets are moving up if the only variable between level frets and uneven frets is string tension. The nibs on the tang make vertical grooves going in and the pressure of string tension squeezes the slot and a few of them move up a little. My guess.

You could pre-string the instrument and then level later, as Burton suggests, or you could simply put a bending load on the fretted neck for a while prior to leveling. If you could get the neck to deflect about .1" or so and leave it there overnight...then after the load is removed the frets will probably have moved as far as they are apt to go...and leveling after that should be final.

Still...it's a little disconcerting if you don't know exactly why it's happening. Good luck!
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
One obvious solution to your problem is to do your second leveling the first time. ;->

'Quartz beam?' What is that? I've gathered from several discussions here and elsewhere that a lot of (or most) newer builders are leveling frets with something that is longer than the fretboard, such as a level with sandpaper glued to it. IMO this is a mistake. It does not allow you to pay attention to local problem areas, or to aim for something other than a straight line for your fret tops. I have always used a 10" mill file. It lets me file in relief and dropoff, and also lets me feel where there is a high fret by the way the file is cutting--something I expect is lost when using a longer tool. I don't know where this 2 foot level thing got started; back in the day, I didn't know anybody who used one. There has been a standardization of building methods in the past 10-15 years, in part perhaps because of the way it's taught at some of the guitar making schools. I think that is too bad, and that it allows one or two people's methods (at some schools, or in some book) to become gospel. I've noticed several times on this forum that when I offer a method for something that isn't what everyone else is doing, the person who made the inquiry is not interested. They only want to know about what "everyone" does.
Author:  David Newton [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
Fillippo,
When fretwire is drawn, the tang has a radius where it intersects the head. A chamfer on the corners of the fret slot makes way for these radii.
(Yeah! I always wanted to type radii!) You could be pounding the chamfer into the board, and it is pushing back with the moisture in the glue.
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
David Newton wrote:
Fillippo,
When fretwire is drawn, the tang has a radius where it intersects the head. A chamfer on the corners of the fret slot makes way for these radii.
(Yeah! I always wanted to type radii!) You could be pounding the chamfer into the board, and it is pushing back with the moisture in the glue.


This one sounds totally plausible, and very clever! I'd use the clappy emoticon if it didn't drive me mad. It didn't occur to me at all to think of the wood as having a 'spring back'. Thanks for that, David, it's going in my little bank of great thoughts.

That little radius always bothered me- it's too bad the fretwire die would wear out in about two minutes if they tried to make frets with an undercut instead. I think we should call frets sitting high because of the radius 'rocker frets', since they could conceivably tilt a little back and forth :)
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
Well, that sure doesn't have the problem of being too long. A bit wider than would be handy, perhaps.

Glad there is still some variation in tools.
Author:  Nick Oliver [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
Howard Klepper wrote:
One obvious solution to your problem is to do your second leveling the first time. ;->

'Quartz beam?' What is that? I've gathered from several discussions here and elsewhere that a lot of (or most) newer builders are leveling frets with something that is longer than the fretboard, such as a level with sandpaper glued to it. IMO this is a mistake. It does not allow you to pay attention to local problem areas, or to aim for something other than a straight line for your fret tops. I have always used a 10" mill file. It lets me file in relief and dropoff, and also lets me feel where there is a high fret by the way the file is cutting--something I expect is lost when using a longer tool. I don't know where this 2 foot level thing got started; back in the day, I didn't know anybody who used one.


I've got a beam & used it once (waste of money [headinwall] ), I've gone back to using my 10" file as well Howard, as you say, it's far more sensitive to 'spot' fixing/leveling & adding a touch of drop off. I must admit that I've used the Stewmac neck jig on my last 5 fret jobs (combined with my trusty file) & have never had to go back & touch up individual frets, I'm a fan. With the advent of my neck jig & a switch awhile ago, to pressing in frets, I finally feel I'm getting a handle on doing a decent job of fretting & am happy with the results.

Howard Klepper wrote:
I've noticed several times on this forum that when I offer a method for something that isn't what everyone else is doing, the person who made the inquiry is not interested. They only want to know about what "everyone" does.


Be happy Howard, sets you apart from the herd ;) :D
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
David Newton wrote:
Fillippo,
When fretwire is drawn, the tang has a radius where it intersects the head. A chamfer on the corners of the fret slot makes way for these radii.
(Yeah! I always wanted to type radii!) You could be pounding the chamfer into the board, and it is pushing back with the moisture in the glue.

David, how do you chamfer the fret slot? Small triangular file? Expensive StuMac tool?

Alex
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
Just to toss one more thing into the mix, how many do a little compounding when leveling frets on a straight radius board?
Author:  Marcus [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Issues with fret level
Filippo, thanks a TON for starting this thread. I've been having this same issue as of late. Also, thanks to everyone who gave input. You guys are a tremendous resource!
Author:  bluescreek [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
I found that the different thickness blades can cause all kinds of headache. I solved my fretting problems but using glue , either tite bond or fish glue . The glue lubricates the wood so the barbs slip in easier and the glue acts as a filler. I also mate the slot with with the tang thickness.
My fretting procedure is this.
1 I bend the fret wire . I do use a triangle file to break the slot corners
2 on adjustable truss rod necks I try and match the slot on compression fretting for non adjustable rods i will use heavier tangs to make the neck flex as needed.
3 I use the glue and thin it about 1/3rd water to glue . A apply it into the slot and hammer in the fret wire.
4 trim the fret ends
5 after glue dries I will sick in CA to the open slots and sand to close the end to give it a more finish look.
6 glue to neck
7 level and polish.
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Issues with fret level
+1 for beveling the slots-I use a square needle file held at a 45 degree angle to the slot.

Once I started doing this my fretwork took a quantum leap forward.

I use a little bit of yellow glue.

When the guitar settles in (a couple weeks to a month) sometimes I have to file the frets a little.

Remember we are dealing with wood which is a "living" thing-it never stops moving.
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