Maybe this is a dumb Question , But I Believe a person can buy Carbon Fibre in a tee shape, wouldnt that be strong enough and actually be straighter and easier to work with ?
Or is the " reproduction " idea tha MAIN reason a person is using steel T
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| Author: | oval soundhole [ Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | T Bar |
I was just wondering if anyone knew where to get a martin style T bar. Thanks |
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| Author: | TonyFrancis [ Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
I got some through a UMGF "group buy" a couple years back, PM me for the details of the machinist if you want. |
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| Author: | TonyFrancis [ Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
Todd Stock wrote: you'll have to do a little straightening on the T, but 10 minutes with a hammer and anvil gets things close enough. I dont know about you Todd, but that's what gives me the heebees about those T-bars. They aren't straight, at least not in the Starrett sense of the word. Do you think they are stable? In a lot of ways, you are better going with a wood (ebony or maple) or carbon rod and compression fretting. |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
The bar doesn't have to be perfectly straight does it? You can glue it, use wood to space the gaps, and glue the fretboard on top, then when you radius the fretboard simply make sure the fret plane is straight. I don't see the problem, just get the bar close and work around it. |
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| Author: | TonyFrancis [ Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
The original rout for the T-bar was looser than you might have thought. You can check pictures out here: http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.y ... erPEluLwfg |
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| Author: | John Arnold [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
I have used 7 or 8 of these bars so far, and the issues with straightness have not been that hard to deal with. I have straightened a few in the vise, but my normal approach is to level the fingerboard just before fretting. I don't worry about it all that much. The original bars are definitely not 'Starrett straight', and IMHO, they don't have to be to do the intended job. I glue them in with HHG. Those Fordice bars were made from cold-rolled steel, which was my suggestion. The original Martin bars were cold-rolled into that shape, and it does introduce some stresses from the cold working. The warpage comes about because some of the stresses are relieved when removing that much material from a 1/2" square. IMHO, the stability over time is not an issue. I did discuss the warpage issue with a local machinist, and he suggested using hot-rolled steel instead. I may do that if and when I have more of them made. IMHO, adding carbon fiber to the steel tee bar is overkill. I have repaired my share of vintage tee bar Martins, and the most common problem is too little relief. |
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| Author: | TonyFrancis [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
Thanks, John! |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
I have some martin tee bars. |
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| Author: | Bob Garrish [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
John Arnold wrote: I did discuss the warpage issue with a local machinist, and he suggested using hot-rolled steel instead. I may do that if and when I have more of them made. That's a good suggestion. Cold rolled is nice for the clean surface and close dimensional specs off the rack, but it's full of stresses. Hot rolled is effectively stress free and holds tolerance much better when machined, but it's not dimensionally consistent or very pretty off the rack. I'd be tempted to TIG or low-temp braze them rather than machining them, though that requires much tighter process control than machining hot rolled. If you really wanted a level bar, the way to go would be surface grinding them post-machining or using the grinder to cut out the waste in the first place. Grinding them isn't a big deal, but it depends on the pricing you guys were aiming for. |
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| Author: | oval soundhole [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
Does anyone know how much a T bar will usually cost you? |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
A true Martin Tee bar is hard to get . $75 is the cost but you have to be a repair center to get one. They are pretty pricey as they are made out of hardened tool steel . Original ones were made of cold rolled . |
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| Author: | John Arnold [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
Quote: $75 is the cost but you have to be a repair center to get one. They are pretty pricey as they are made out of hardened tool steel . Original ones were made of cold rolled . Tool steel is probably a good option, but I see no reason to harden it. The Fordice bars were about $30, if I recall correctly. John, Rumor has it that the new Martin tee bars have two vertical legs, making them 'pi' bars. Is it true? |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
I have not seen the pi bar yet . The tee bar that is available now is not like the original , the vertical part is shorter . I agree that tool steel is overkill. |
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| Author: | oval soundhole [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
bluescreek wrote: A true Martin Tee bar is hard to get . $75 is the cost but you have to be a repair center to get one. They are pretty pricey as they are made out of hardened tool steel . Original ones were made of cold rolled . Are there any cheaper Tee bars? |
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| Author: | TonyFrancis [ Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
The Fordice bars were $25 each when I got mine. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
As a tool maker in my previous career cold rolled will machine better and I don't have the warpage, I won't need to do a 2nd heat treatment . It is a plenty strong enough for this job. As for price You will get what you pay for. CF Martin changed to tool steel that needs a secondary heat treatment . Not sure but it may be D2 alloy. What drives the cost is the time to machine . You just can't wack this down , it has to be done correctly to avoid heat stress and work hardening. |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
As an ex machinist I can't understand folks going through the naus of turning steel square stock into T-bar when a 1/4" by 1/2" CF stock would be so much easier to use. Tom |
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| Author: | John Arnold [ Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
Quote: I can't understand folks going through the naus of turning steel square stock into T-bar Many of my customers want a replica of a 1930's Martin, and this seems to be the way to do it. I certainly cannot argue with the results. I also have used CF bars, and they make great necks. But the guitars don't sound like 1930's Martins. Quote: Are there any cheaper Tee bars? I don't see a problem with paying $25 or $30 for a tee bar, when you consider that common adjustable rods are about $15. I have also used titanium truss rods, which cost more than $30. |
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| Author: | TonyFrancis [ Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
bluescreek wrote: What drives the cost is the time to machine . Sure, but this is not comparing apples. From Larry you are buying direct from a machinist. I assume if you are buying from Martin they are also adding their cut, and that must be a significant part of the $50 difference. (Not that I have any problem with that!) |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
I make my own , the time to cut one is not as fast as you may think. Like John Arnold say people that want a vintage replication want it as exact as possible. I even have the back and herringbone custom made for 1937's. |
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| Author: | Ken Franklin [ Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
John A, where do you get your titanium truss rods and are they 2 way? |
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| Author: | WudWerkr [ Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
Maybe this is a dumb Question , But I Believe a person can buy Carbon Fibre in a tee shape, wouldnt that be strong enough and actually be straighter and easier to work with ? Or is the " reproduction " idea tha MAIN reason a person is using steel T |
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| Author: | TonyFrancis [ Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: T Bar |
WudWerkr wrote: Maybe this is a dumb Question , But I Believe a person can buy Carbon Fibre in a tee shape, wouldnt that be strong enough and actually be straighter and easier to work with ? Or is the " reproduction " idea tha MAIN reason a person is using steel T Reproduction is the main reason, but its an interesting idea you raise. A single large carbon rod is easier to mill for than a T, and with compression fret job works great. But there are a number of ways to do this better than a modern adjustable rod. |
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