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1st hide glue build
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=32373		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  JSDenvir [ Sun May 29, 2011 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  1st hide glue build
I'm starting my first hide glue build on #4 and 5. Are there any places where I shouldn't use hide glue?

As always, thanks in advance.

Steve
Author:  oval soundhole [ Sun May 29, 2011 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
I'm no expert, but it takes me a while to glue the back to the sides, so I use fish glue for that because of the longer open time.
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Sun May 29, 2011 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
I would say to keep it off your skin because its HOT!! :o

Just kidding. Like Oval soundhole said, fish glue has a longer open time, and getting the top or back glued to the rim might be made easier and less stressful if you use fish glue for that procedure and HHG for the rest.
Author:  Daniel Minard [ Sun May 29, 2011 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
I wouldn't say you shouldn't use HHG in some places, but I (and many others) use several different adhesives for different applications.
I use epoxy on heel & end blocks and the fingerboard to neck joint. Also when building up a multi-piece heel block or a laminated neck. Carbon fibre rods should (IMHO) be done with epoxy.
As others mentioned, fish glue (or LMI white or yellow glue) for gluing down the top & back.
I may be alone in this one, but after having a horrible time removing a HHG glued bridge, I have started using LMI white for this job. I've done 8 or 9 so far with no evidence of failure.
Author:  jm2 [ Sun May 29, 2011 11:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
Oval soundhole and Tony, what kind (brand) of fish glue are you two using?
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Sun May 29, 2011 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
I do not use fish glue, but if you want to stick with glue made from rendering animals, or formerly living creatures, fish glue will be a big help when gluing the top or back on. I use Titebond on everything, including my pancakes. I am a non conformist. Plus, my guitars are so bad, nothing can help them, so any benefot of HHG is lost on my guitars. And my ears too.
You can find fish glue at Lee Valley.
Author:  jm2 [ Mon May 30, 2011 12:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
I have to confess to believing that HHG can have an effect on sound. After all, it is a component of the guitar that is required to bend, vibrate, and transmit acoustical energy, and various glues will indeed have different properties in terms of Modulus of Elasticity, acoustical impedence, damping coefficient, etc. Now how much effect is another question altogether, and best left for another day : -)

Tony, I have Lee Valley fish glue, and like it for many things. When I saw the two of you mention fish glue, I wondered if there was any other manufacturer I was unaware of. Norland Products in the U.S. also sells high tack fish glue, that is from the same source as Lee valley's fish glue.

Now if someone wants the ultimate in glues, there is always genuine Salianski Insinglas Russian Sturgeon bladder fish glue, which is as expensive as it sounds, and probably more than caviar by weight from the same fish. Great stuff though.
Author:  Ken McKay [ Mon May 30, 2011 12:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
I kinda dissagree on the sound thing, I think it does make a difference. I also think it is worth it to learn to use HHG. You can just add salt or urea to your glue to make it gel at a lower temp. I don't remember off the top of my head how much salt I add and I do it differently in the summer than the cold winter. I make glue that I use to close the box that is pretty much liquid at room temp. It needs to be heated in the water bath but will stay liquid for more than a couple hours. Good stuff...I keep it in a mustard bottle. This salty glue is not high tack though, so don't expect the same properties as regular HHG with it's ability to grab and stay put after a good rubbing.
Author:  nickton [ Mon May 30, 2011 1:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
Interesting. I just bought some myself, on Ebay. I remember a few years ago someone posted that hide glue has a tendency to pull joints together when it sets. Is this true anyone?

thank you all for this thread.
Author:  guitarras_fdc [ Mon May 30, 2011 2:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
I build Spanish style, and I use hide glue for everything, except the carbon graphite reinforcement for the neck, for which one should use epoxy, and rosette work, for which I use Titebond (Eugene Clark explains why in his GAL article about making the Spanish rosette)

The reasons why one should use hide glue are many. Here are a few:
1. the glue line will show less.
2. it is stronger than Titebond (Frank Ford tested it and the results are in one of the GAL books)
3. it does not "cold creep", meaning the glue joint doesn't slide under pressure or tension, as does regular Titebond. I have seen many warped necks on cheapo classicals due to cold creep of the fingerboard-neck joint.
4.it is easier to repair.
5.it is the historical glue, Torres and Stradivari built with it.
6.It dries to a hard crystal like form, meaning it does not dampen vibration in any way.
7.there is actually very little glue between the joint: less glue, better wood to wood contact.
8.it is the glue used in the violin trade, think about it, you never hear of a violin being built using Titebond.
9. Is actually easier to use once you get the hang of it. The parts don't slide around when you are positioning them. If you what to re do something, just clean it up and try again, the new glue will blend with the old.

Whether you think it makes a difference in the sound is your choice. I happen to believe is does. A lot.

I use the 192 g strength and sometimes the 251 g. For gluing stuff that takes long you use the lower strength which gives a little more time. I haven't used fish glue or modified glued because I haven't had to. You have to heat the room. You also use a hair drier to reheat the joint, no problem. Gluing the binding is actually more stressful to me using Titebond.. With hide glue, you just add a little water, reheat with the hair drier and continue...

Definitely learn to use it. Especially for bracing, fingerboard and bridge.
Author:  bluescreek [ Mon May 30, 2011 6:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
There is a study being done with Penn State and CF Martin to evaluate HHG and what it may do tonally . I will admit it needs more work but initial studies are showing an improvement in the amplitude of sound waves with HHG over tite bond. I have switched to HHG abd fish glue and I do hear a difference . I was one that strongly proposed no difference . I also admit that I am using brace patterns of 1944 and earlier .
I like that you are reattach HHG or Fish glue with hot water , steam or just ad more glue . I avoid epoxy all together. If you ever have to take something apart , epoxy won't come apart without damage. I see no reason to use it on block , except for maybe cocobolo or high resinous woods. Fish glue is harder to get apart than HHG or tite bond. I use HHG on bridges. Things that are more permanent I use fish. I hope that the Penn State Study will be able to have a resolve to this debate .
One point that has to be made. Regardless of glue used , your joint integrity is most important . The better the mating surfaces the better the end result . With HHG and Fish glue , you need to be very precise. Tite Bond will fill gaps better than the animal glues.
tite bond is still a very acceptable glue for guitars . Having done over a 125 guitars I have found many ideas and theories from early on fell by the way side . Keep an open mind and building logs to learn cause and effect relationships .
Just my 2 cents .
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Mon May 30, 2011 7:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
JSDenvir wrote:
Are there any places where I shouldn't use hide glue?
Yes, where you're not proficient enough with HHG. Put a drop of HHG on the bench, do a dry run and see how much your HHG has gelled. If too much, do another dry run with another method, or use another glue with more open time.
Author:  jm2 [ Mon May 30, 2011 8:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
nickton wrote:
Interesting. I just bought some myself, on Ebay. I remember a few years ago someone posted that hide glue has a tendency to pull joints together when it sets. Is this true anyone?

thank you all for this thread.



Some violin makers glue top and back center seams using a so called rub joint, set with no clamps.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon May 30, 2011 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
It's not unheard of for guitar makers to use rubbed HHG joints for bridges.
Author:  JSDenvir [ Mon May 30, 2011 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
I'm fully aware of the challenges of installing a top or back before the glue gels, but there was a nifty workaround a few issue back in American Lutherie. The author was attaching the top on a double bass, I believe (yeah we think we've got it tough :-). But what he did was to apply the hide glue to both sides, let it dry, and then clamp up the top and sides. He then re-activated the glue with one of those little portable steamers. Says he's never had a problem.

Steve
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Mon May 30, 2011 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
Filippo Morelli wrote:
There is no benefit to HHG in sound, Tony, at least than anyone can tell. That said, I use it plenty for a variety of other reasons. As others have said - linings and closing the boxes, use fish glue (or Titebond). You can do your purfling and binding with HHG I suppose - you might want some pointers to do that, though.

You can close a box with HHG, but it takes HHG chops - not something one tries out of the gate (I tried 3x times on my first HHG guitar and learned the hard way!)

Filippo


Filippo,
I do not think HHG benefits sound, but some people do. I will continue to use Titebond for everything, including my pancakes because it is easy to use, and like you said, world class guitars are being built from it. So it must be OK. You however, have opened up one big can of worms!
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon May 30, 2011 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
You should try canned worms on your pancakes! It adds body! [xx(]
Author:  mqbernardo [ Mon May 30, 2011 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
first, i like your humour, Tony.

i´m currently (it seems for ages now) building my first guitar, and i am only using HHG. i have no previous woodworking experience and have two god-given left-hands and i don´t find HHG that hard to work with. i use a candle (the side of the flame, and at a distance) to heat up the wood before gluing, it all seems to work OK.
i am still starting to develop some skills using it (maybe i´ll ask some questions on some other thread), but it does not really seem that hard to use, and the factor that i can re-activate it with heat and moister is rather forgiving for a first timer like me. i prefer my worms on a dish, though, canned version lacks extra-woomph-wow factor, IMVHO. :)

cheers,
Miguel.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Mon May 30, 2011 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
JSDenvir wrote:
I'm fully aware of the challenges of installing a top or back before the glue gels, but there was a nifty workaround a few issue back in American Lutherie. The author was attaching the top on a double bass, I believe (yeah we think we've got it tough :-). But what he did was to apply the hide glue to both sides, let it dry, and then clamp up the top and sides. He then re-activated the glue with one of those little portable steamers. Says he's never had a problem.

Steve
This is the traditional way to work with HHG. If you read Bouchet's "Cahiers de guitare" this is what he did on most tricky operations (like bindings, linings, closing the box etc.). He used an alcohol lamp (we lucky ones can use a heat gun) and some moisture to reactivate the glue, the principle is the same. That's the beauty of HHG.
The difference between double-basses and guitars is that nobody looks inside a double-bass. It's going to be tricky to keep those linings clean of HHG, and you're going to spend some time cleaning up squeeze out until you figure out exactly how much glue to use…
Author:  JSDenvir [ Mon May 30, 2011 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
Hi Laurent, thanks for the heads up.

Steve
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Mon May 30, 2011 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
WaddyThomson wrote:
You should try canned worms on your pancakes! It adds body! [xx(]


I prefer fresh worms on my pancakes. I reserve canned worms for theoretical discussions about things like HHG! LOL I do appreciate the extra protein the worms bring to the table though. Canned or otherwise.
Author:  Michael Lloyd [ Mon May 30, 2011 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
I've added the Quartz Overhead Radiant Heater from Lee Valley and find it is ideal when working with HHG. Creates a fairly large work area where tools and wood are kept at just the right temperature.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=44590&cat=1,43456,43465,44590

I personally prefer HG with fish glue a strong second.
Author:  klooker [ Mon May 30, 2011 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
Here's how Mario Proulx glues the top w/HHG - 3 minutes & you're done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2SuYAYJ5oQ

Kevin Looker
Author:  David Newton [ Mon May 30, 2011 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
I use HHG for everything.
I believe, I believe, I believe! bliss
Author:  violinvic [ Mon May 30, 2011 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 1st hide glue build
My two cents. I build fiddles and am just finishing up a carved double bass. When glueing the plates to the ribs, I clamp the plate all the way around using spool clamps. Then remove 3-4 clamps at a time and work HHG into the joint with a thin preheated spatula, then reapply the clamps. Work your way all the way around the instrument, then remove the squeeze out. This is the traditional way to glue violin family instruments. I don't know if it would work for a guitar, but I aim to find out in a couple months. Pals, Vic.
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