Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff

Are the mics the same?

James Orr wrote:

Are the mics the same?

This is a very relevant question. The Zoom H4n does have XLR and phantom to power up a top shelf condenser mic. The unit itself is equipped with a pair of reasonable XY axis stereo mics that will give anything in class a run for its money.

This is to say that they function well and get the job done for a quick and easy recording of acceptable quality. Very handy if you are writing and developing a song.

But when the writing and development is done and dusted and you want to present your work at its best, chances are you will eventually be drawn to a higher end condenser mic specifically for vocals and its nice to know that the H4n can support that without compromise.

Cheers

Kim

Most importantly, one of the compromises that all these inexpensive hand-held recorders make is that the analog to digital converters are not so good compared to the quality you would find in a professional studio.

Yes Kim is correct in my original question. BTW Kim, thanks for your previous posts on the Zoom - I read them in the archives and saw the demos.

That said, Chris Verhoeven also made the same point, and said I should look at the Motu products.

All in all it seems like the H4n is good bang for the buck. I was thinking of spending less $$$ in the H1 or H2. Need to discuss how my boys want to use it.

Filippo

runamuck wrote:

The title and intro to this topic appear to call for input toward comparison of hand held units. Obviously a pro studio would give superior results to a hand held unit. But if you are not a pro musician then expense of that studio time can be difficult to justify. Not everyone can afford that kind of money on an ongoing basis or the time and inconvenience of fitting into some else's schedule who runs one.

The bottom line is that you can't hold a professional studio in your hand and use it at a whim, so its a clear case of horses for courses and the quality of recording you can get from these units is a 'very' clear indicator that dollar for dollar, they punch well and truly above their weight when compared to what one would need to spend on pro studio gear to get a better result.

Cheers

Kim

I simply didn't think that the phrase, in bold above, was entirely accurate.

Just for comparison purposes, here are a couple of recordings on an H4 and one I did(excuse the playing) on my H1. Johnnies playing is much better.

. The ease of use of the Zoom (even just having the H1 for all of $80) seems like a no brainer.

Filippo

it took me a couple of nights to get through the manual.
Cheers,
Danny

You guys don't understand - I have 3 boys between the ages of 11 and 14. What takes you two days to understand with that kind of newfangled tech takes them about 2 minutes. And I'm a technology guy! Scary stuff ...

My 13 year old will borg the H4n in no time flat. If it's got buttons and a display he's all over it :-)

Filippo

I, generally, will normalize to a higher level, as it's hard to record at high levels without overdriving the little system.

Author:	WaddyThomson [ Thu May 12, 2011 11:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
The H4 is a pretty complete system. Johnnie, the guy who does all my clips uses one for all of his recording, and the quality is quite good, if you ask me. Particularly for non-studio recording. I have an H1, but it does not have the multi tracking capability. Whan Johnnie records, he just sets it on a table, on it's little tripod, in front of him, about 2 - 3 feet away, and does his thing. I, generally, will normalize to a higher level, as it's hard to record at high levels without overdriving the little system.

Author:	David Newton [ Thu May 12, 2011 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
I would to get the Zoom video Q3HD. I want it to make clips for my website, showing and listening to guitars for sale, and sending video and sound samples to inquiring customers. Looks like I can get it for around $200.

Author:	Tom West [ Thu May 12, 2011 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
Filippo: On the UMGF they have a seperate section on recording. There may be more info over there. Tom

Author:	mqbernardo [ Thu May 12, 2011 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
hey, Filippo, you might want to check these out: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun09/a ... oomh4n.htm http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun10/a ... zoomq3.htm i suppose they are free for general public (tjey become so after 4 months, IIRC). cheers, Miguel.

Author:	James Orr [ Thu May 12, 2011 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
Are the mics the same? I have some studio quality tube mics, but I've used them once in the past five years. I think about selling them from time to time, but ultimately keep them around.

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Author:	Kim [ Fri May 13, 2011 12:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
James Orr wrote: Are the mics the same? This is a very relevant question. The Zoom H4n does have XLR and phantom to power up a top shelf condenser mic. The unit itself is equipped with a pair of reasonable XY axis stereo mics that will give anything in class a run for its money. This is to say that they function well and get the job done for a quick and easy recording of acceptable quality. Very handy if you are writing and developing a song. But when the writing and development is done and dusted and you want to present your work at its best, chances are you will eventually be drawn to a higher end condenser mic specifically for vocals and its nice to know that the H4n can support that without compromise. Cheers Kim

Author:	runamuck [ Fri May 13, 2011 12:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
Kim wrote: James Orr wrote: Are the mics the same? This is a very relevant question. The Zoom H4n does have XLR and phantom to power up a top shelf condenser mic. The unit itself is equipped with a pair of reasonable XY axis stereo mics that will give anything in class a run for its money. This is to say that they function well and get the job done for a quick and easy recording of acceptable quality. Very handy if you are writing and developing a song. But when the writing and development is done and dusted and you want to present your work at its best, chances are you will eventually be drawn to a higher end condenser mic specifically for vocals and its nice to know that the H4n can support that without compromise. Cheers Kim Having onboard mics and providing phantom power for better condensor mics are only 2 of many parts of what goes into making a great recording. Most importantly, one of the compromises that all these inexpensive hand-held recorders make is that the analog to digital converters are not so good compared to the quality you would find in a professional studio.

Author:	Kim [ Fri May 13, 2011 1:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
runamuck wrote: Most importantly, one of the compromises that all these inexpensive hand-held recorders make is that the analog to digital converters are not so good compared to the quality you would find in a professional studio. The title and intro to this topic appear to call for input toward comparison of hand held units. Obviously a pro studio would give superior results to a hand held unit. But if you are not a pro musician then expense of that studio time can be difficult to justify. Not everyone can afford that kind of money on an ongoing basis or the time and inconvenience of fitting into some else's schedule who runs one. The bottom line is that you can't hold a professional studio in your hand and use it at a whim, so its a clear case of horses for courses and the quality of recording you can get from these units is a 'very' clear indicator that dollar for dollar, they punch well and truly above their weight when compared to what one would need to spend on pro studio gear to get a better result. Cheers Kim

Author:	Ken Jones [ Fri May 13, 2011 2:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
I recently picked up a Q3 for $200, and I'm very impressed with the sound quality of the onboard mics, which are the same as the H4N's. Because I have an extensive array of studio gear and multitrack capability through my console, I had no need for multitrack capability in a handheld. My main use for this unit is to capture video of my band's live performances for use on Youtube. It's excelled in that department, when left in capable hands, or better yet, on a strategically-placed tripod. For multitracking, a handheld would not be my first choice. Instead, I'd recommend picking up a decent interface, which can be had for well under $200, then pairing it with affordable recording software, the first that comes to mind being Reaper. It's an excellent program that can be downloaded, fully functional, for free, and a full license runs $60, I believe. Pretty much the best deal out there. Of course, if you use a Mac, then Garage Band will do just fine. The learning curve on a DAW is steeper, but the capability you're afforded is well worth it. Ken

Author:	mqbernardo [ Fri May 13, 2011 5:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
Filippo Morelli wrote: Yes Kim is correct in my original question. BTW Kim, thanks for your previous posts on the Zoom - I read them in the archives and saw the demos. That said, Chris Verhoeven also made the same point, and said I should look at the Motu products. All in all it seems like the H4n is good bang for the buck. I was thinking of spending less $$$ in the H1 or H2. Need to discuss how my boys want to use it. Filippo yes, kim summed it up nicely. to give you more choice - i´m mean like that - you could also check out the olympus L5 ( http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov10/a ... pusls5.htm ; http://www.thomann.de/pt/olympus_ls_5.htm ), don´t know how much it is across the pond though. i have a MOTU ultralite and love it, but for what you said most MOTUs would be serious overkill, IMHO. this little baby shure is yummi, though : http://www.thomann.de/pt/motu_microbook.htm , will take care of multitracking. If i was you (which i´m not, so it´s easy for me to say), i would go with the H4n. alternatively, i could sell you my H2 (jk) cheers, Miguel.

Author:	WaddyThomson [ Fri May 13, 2011 9:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
Just for comparison purposes, here are a couple of recordings on an H4 and one I did(excuse the playing) on my H1. Johnnies playing is much better. Barrios', Julia Florida on my #7 Guitar - Johnnie May playing. H4 recording in my office - no effects.. http://waddythomson.com/Clips/Barrios_J ... M_on_7.mp3 Tarrega's, Lagrima on my #6. Same recording conditions as the abpve. http://waddythomson.com/Clips/Lagrima_on_6.mp3 Sor's, Lexicon V, Opus 60, on my #7 - Me playing. Recorded on my H1 at home. No effects. http://waddythomson.com/Clips/Sor_-_Lex ... 7_-_WT.MP3

Author:	runamuck [ Fri May 13, 2011 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
Kim wrote: runamuck wrote: Most importantly, one of the compromises that all these inexpensive hand-held recorders make is that the analog to digital converters are not so good compared to the quality you would find in a professional studio. The title and intro to this topic appear to call for input toward comparison of hand held units. Obviously a pro studio would give superior results to a hand held unit. But if you are not a pro musician then expense of that studio time can be difficult to justify. Not everyone can afford that kind of money on an ongoing basis or the time and inconvenience of fitting into some else's schedule who runs one. The bottom line is that you can't hold a professional studio in your hand and use it at a whim, so its a clear case of horses for courses and the quality of recording you can get from these units is a 'very' clear indicator that dollar for dollar, they punch well and truly above their weight when compared to what one would need to spend on pro studio gear to get a better result. Cheers Kim Yeah, I entirely agree with everything you say here. I was responding to this sentence from a previous post: But when the writing and development is done and dusted and you want to present your work at its best, chances are you will eventually be drawn to a higher end condenser mic specifically for vocals and its nice to know that the H4n can support that without compromise. I'm not trying to be persnickity. I have an inexpensive hand-held myself and it's great for getting down ideas etc. But I also have a studio and there is a significant difference in the quality between the two in the recordings they each produce. I simply didn't think that the phrase, in bold above, was entirely accurate.

Author:	Kim [ Fri May 13, 2011 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
runamuck wrote: I simply didn't think that the phrase, in bold above, was entirely accurate. I am not trying to be persnickity either however my statement was never intended to be so broad as to cover the entire topic of general sound recording. If taken in context with the intended focus of 'this' topics it remains accurate. That is to say that the intent was to point out that should the user of a hand held wish to up grade the mic, which IMO can be fairly considered the link in the audio chain which has the single most impact upon the quality of recording, the Zoom H4n can support the requirements of a high end condenser mic and produce a superior result for the investment...So the point here is that not all 'hand held' are capable of doing that. Cheers Kim

Author:	DannyV [ Fri May 13, 2011 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
H4N has exeptional sound quality for a little unit. I would say it's money well spent. You can do a lot with it. Also, my daughter and I use it for music workshops. I guess depending on how old you are it could be a big asset for memory assistance. It has an adapter that is the shape of a mic so it fits nicely into a mic stand. Good Luck

Author:	Carlos Juan Busquiel [ Sat May 14, 2011 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
I have some recordings of my guitars done with a Zoom H4n. I just placed the unit on a camera tripod about 50mm from the player. Asturias. 7 string cedar top. Francisco Albert Ricote http://www.guitarrasdeconcierto.com/app ... 1265902137 Hoja de álbum. 7 string cedar top. Francisco Albert Ricote http://www.guitarrasdeconcierto.com/app ... 4/Hoja+de+álbum.mp3?t=1265902496 Silencio de cristal. 7 string cedar top. Francisco Albert Ricote. http://www.guitarrasdeconcierto.com/app ... 1265902831 Medley. Spruce top. Marco Smaili. http://www.carlosjuanbusquiel.com/app/d ... cla-01.mp3 Un día de noviembre. Spruce top. Pepe Payá. http://www.carlosjuanbusquiel.com/app/d ... 28Pepe+Payá+-+guitarra+n05%29.mp3 I hope this helps you decide.

Author:	Alexandru Marian [ Sun May 15, 2011 2:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
The room is very important. I have a rather decent setup (2 Rode condensers, EMU external card total 600$) and record in 3 different rooms, each puts an incredibly different envelope on the sound, and each makes the instrument project differently. A customer brought his guitar I built for him to a studio for a pro recording, with eggcrate walls and $$$$ mics and gear, and it sounds worse than my worst setup. They tried several configurations so I assume that room was just bad, or the tech really sucked ?! In any case I was shocked by the result. Other than this, every time I hear a zoom recording I am impressed by how nice it sounds for the money.

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Author:	alan stassforth [ Fri May 13, 2011 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
I say pony up the dough for the h4. Mainly because of the phantom power. You can find cheap conenser mics, for $100, later, and the sound quality will be a lot better than the built ins. You can even "hot rod" those mics later still! If you want to do tracking, another can o worms. If you get lucky and get all the levels right, you can have a studio clean em up, and get an even better job. Just use a click track, so they tracks "line up".

Author:	James Orr [ Sat May 14, 2011 12:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
WaddyThomson wrote: Just for comparison purposes, here are a couple of recordings on an H4 and one I did(excuse the playing) on my H1. Johnnies playing is much better. These clips all sound great. The H4 actually seems like a great little unit. One of the only reasons I haven't used my setup much in the past few years is simply bc I don't like setting it up. Getting the stands out, setting preamps up, doing the breakout box thing, etc. But pulling this thing out and popping out the tripod is a completely different story. Pretty convenient it seems.

Author:	DannyV [ Sat May 14, 2011 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
Filippo Morelli wrote: . The ease of use of the Zoom (even just having the H1 for all of $80) seems like a no brainer. Filippo I'm a little techno inept and it took me a couple of nights to get through the manual. I think you will be pleasantly surprised when you see the the functions on that little baby. It can do a lot more than "push button to record", although it can do that too. Looking forward to hearing some clips from you with it. Cheers, Danny

Author:	Kim [ Sat May 14, 2011 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
DannyV wrote: it took me a couple of nights to get through the manual. Cheers, Danny Unlike the manual your statement is totally understandable Danny, the chinglish is difficult to over come and is my one complaint with the product bas a whole...no big deal though because the interface is so intuitive it makes it quite easy to find your way. Cheers Kim

Author:	alan stassforth [ Sat May 14, 2011 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
Have fun with that! Recording is great fun. It also improves your playing, a lot. Just don't start buying all the stuff you can buy for that hobby!

Author:	DannyV [ Sun May 15, 2011 7:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
Filippo Morelli wrote: You guys don't understand - I have 3 boys between the ages of 11 and 14. What takes you two days to understand with that kind of newfangled tech takes them about 2 minutes. And I'm a technology guy! Scary stuff ... My 13 year old will borg the H4n in no time flat. If it's got buttons and a display he's all over it Filippo I have girls. All I get is daaaaaaaaad.

Author:	Andy Birko [ Tue May 17, 2011 8:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
WaddyThomson wrote: I, generally, will normalize to a higher level, as it's hard to record at high levels without overdriving the little system. Waddy, The H4n has a very decent limiter built in with a couple of different settings. Using it, you can run slightly hotter levels and it will just compress a bit if it runs out of headroom. I had an H4 and upgraded to the H4n about a year ago and am very happy with the unit. The mics on that unit have no business being that good for that price. I have an old set of Neumann KM184s which run around $1600 for the pair new and they are only a little bit better than the built ins for most applications!

Author:	WaddyThomson [ Tue May 17, 2011 9:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Zoom H4n versus lots of other stuff
I understand that it has that capability, but my experience tells me you can hear the difference. The recordings are much more live sounding when you record at a slightly lower level and normalize to somewhere in the 80% range. Now, you have to remember that my experience is recording classical guitar, only, and compression is the enemy!