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traditional cabinetmakers varnish
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=32029		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  ernie [ Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  traditional cabinetmakers varnish
recommendations for a quality oil based product , cannot spray in bsmt , or garage. also recoommendation, which z poxy to use as porefiller on mahogany, an koa,???have always used water or oil based fillers. thanks ernie
Author:  alan stassforth [ Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: traditional cabinetmakers varnish
Funny you should ask,
I am trying 2 different varnishes right now.
Old Masters spar varnish, and Sherwin Williams wood classics fast drying.
I've found varnish varies widely.
O.M. is very dark and really makes koa look nice, brings out
reds, golds and yellows. Also brings out any red steaks in spruce.
It takes a day to dry.
Woody likes S.W. fast dry, and I tried that out on Mahog.
Dries almost as fast as laquer, seems harder than the O.M.,
and has less fumes.
Also WAY less yellow.
Laurent likes the Ace brand, which I haven't tried yet,
but will.
Also, when I wiped down the first coat with naptha on the S.W., it re-activated the varnish,
so use a tack cloth instead.
Have fun!
Alan.
Author:  Pat Foster [ Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: traditional cabinetmakers varnish
My only experiences with varnish on instruments has been with Behlen's Rockhard Tabletop Varnish, brushed on. Gives a very hard, tough finish that buffs up pretty well, but is darker than I'd like. I pretty much follow Alan Carruth's schedule.

Pat
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: traditional cabinetmakers varnish
I do not currently use Ace Interior Varnish, but I've used it in the past. It is a beautiful pale varnish. Bruce Sexauer has been using it for a few years now. Another pale alkyd varnish I'd recommend is Pratt&Lambert #38, very fast drying: I could manage 3 coats/day.
I currently use Epifanes clear varnish.
http://www.epifanes.com/
You can see the different varnishes here from L to R: Epifanes, Ace, Ace, Rockhard. All the same thickness at about .004".
Author:  Neil Gardiner [ Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: traditional cabinetmakers varnish
Hey Laurent

Are those tops all the same wood?

Quite a visual difference.
Author:  RaymundH [ Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: traditional cabinetmakers varnish
Ernie,
Behlen's Rockhard is very easy to deal with, however, it will certainly give your top an amber hue. I finished a snow white Englemann top and now the color looks like an old Martin guitar soundboard. (which I like very much).

The Z-Poxy you are looking for is "Finishing Resin" which you can see here...

http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproduc ... r=Z%2Dpoxy

Very easy to apply and I think there is a tutorial provided on this site.

Good luck.

Ray
Author:  Don Williams [ Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: traditional cabinetmakers varnish
Epifanes is da bomb. The boating industry knows their varnishes better than anyone, and Epifanes is considered to be the best of them by the boat fanatics I know. I have a can I almost used on a project, but have plans to use it on a personal instrument one of these days.
Author:  ernie [ Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: traditional cabinetmakers varnish
we have s&w ,behlens , an ace, but not many wood boats (EPIFANES IN KC) Z epoxy finishing on amazon. thanks
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: traditional cabinetmakers varnish
Ernie, no reason you can't continue to use the water or oil based paste pore fillers since you have the experience.
Author:  Jimmy Caldwell [ Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: traditional cabinetmakers varnish
Laurent Brondel wrote:
I do not currently use Ace Interior Varnish, but I've used it in the past. It is a beautiful pale varnish. Bruce Sexauer has been using it for a few years now. Another pale alkyd varnish I'd recommend is Pratt&Lambert #38, very fast drying: I could manage 3 coats/day.
I currently use Epifanes clear varnish.
http://www.epifanes.com/
You can see the different varnishes here from L to R: Epifanes, Ace, Ace, Rockhard. All the same thickness at about .004".


Laurent,

Do you spray the Epiphanes? Any chance of getting your finish schedule? I'm going to be finishing an all Koa 00 soon for Healdsburg and I've been wanting to try a varnish finish for quite some time. TIA.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: traditional cabinetmakers varnish
The tops from L to R are Carpathian, red, German and German. All very white to start with, no Sitka there.
Jimmy, yes I spray the Epifanes and it works very well, with an HVLP 1mm tip gun (I think). It has the best flow of all the oil varnishes I know, pretty hard to get a run with it.
I mix Epi clear varnish 1:1:1 with their accelerator and spray thinner (they also have a slower brush thinner). Essentially I use a quart each and I transfer in glass jars. I add about 20% acetone to the mix. For a sealer I use either de-waxed blonde shellac, Behlen's violin varnish (a spirit varnish) or a considerably thinned mix of the varnish, depending on what I want for effect and colour. If using the thinned varnish for a sealer you may have to wait a few days before it fully cures on oily exotics. I spray the 1st varnish coat cut 1:1 with Naphtha, the 2nd a little thicker until the 4th that is sprayed full strength. You need to scuff or sand before each coat, and then level after, say, the 3rd. Typically for a finish .004" thick it takes 6 coats if the porefill is near perfect. Depending on your shop temp and RH between 24 and 48 hours are needed between each coat. I let it cure for minimum 2 weeks, the longer the better, although I've buffed after 3 days without negative effect, except the varnish is still a bit soft.
Author:  Don Williams [ Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: traditional cabinetmakers varnish
Laurent, I know this is probably a stupid question, but the accelerator....doesn't it accelerate the curing pretty much as soon as it's added? I'm thinking like CA accelerator which causes a very fast cure of the stuff. I'm guessing this is a different type of thing?
Thanks...
Author:  woody b [ Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: traditional cabinetmakers varnish
I used Epifanes on 10 or so, but didn't like the long cure time. I never used as much accelerator as Laurent though. The Sherwin Williams Varnish I currently use is a little bit lighter(in color) than the Epifanes. I usually use the varnish for a sealer. 6 to 8 coats sprayed with a Walcom EGO gun, 1.2(?)(tip might be 1.3, I'll have to look, but it's not a big difference)tip for a 3 to 5 mil (.003" to .005", or 75 yo 125 microns)finish. In ideal conditions you can recoat in 3 to 4 hours, but I usually don't spray more than 2 coats a day. I've buffed it as quick as 3 days, but it's easier to get really glossy if you wait longer. Buffing is about the scratch pattern. If the finish is still a little soft it's harder to turn the coarse scratches to fine scratches. My favorite method is to sand with 600 to 800 to 1200 after 3 days, and buff with menzerna medium. Then after another week or so it only takes a couple minutes to finish buffing with fine. FWIW Sherwin Williams now owns Pratt and Lambert. A kid at my local SW store told me SW Fast Dry Oil Varnish, and Pratt and Lambert #38 are the same product. I don't know if this is actually true, or even if the Pratt and Lambert forumla changed after the buy out.
For a look at the color here's the same guitar, before, and after Sherwin Williams Fast Dry Oil Varnish.
Attachment:
Before SW Varnish.jpg

Attachment:
After SW Varnish.jpg



Another thing to consider, most (or maybe all) "spar" varnishes, like Epifanes have UV blockers, so what you have new (for color) is basically what you'll always have. Some clients want their guitar to darken over time, some don't. "Cabinet" varnishes, like the SW I use will yellow some when exposed to UV. They'll also allow the wood to darken more over time. I'm 99% sure I'm right about the UV blockers. If any of the smart people say I'm wrong believe them and I'll stand corrected. :shock:
Author:  jason c [ Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  traditional cabinetmakers varnish
What do you guys feel are the advantages of varnish?
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: traditional cabinetmakers varnish
Don Williams wrote:
…but the accelerator....doesn't it accelerate the curing pretty much as soon as it's added? I'm thinking like CA accelerator which causes a very fast cure of the stuff. I'm guessing this is a different type of thing?
Epifanes clear varnish is a spar, a long oil varnish. What they call accelerator is composed, I venture to think, of added resins. In any case it transforms the spar into a medium to short oil varnish, depending on dosage. Before using Epifanes I had extended discussions with Stefan Low, the US rep. Very nice fellow, and very knowledgeable people.
jason c wrote:
What do you guys feel are the advantages of varnish?
This is perhaps better left for another topic as we already highjacked this one. If you search the archives you'll find plenty of threads on the subject, with various opinions, as usual.
Oil varnish is a lifestyle choice, I would dare say.
Author:  ernie [ Sun May 01, 2011 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: traditional cabinetmakers varnish
Broke down today and spent $20 for behlens rock hard at woodcraft thanks. They also had a 2 x2 by 18 in 1/4 sawn indian rosewood blank for 14 $ should yield 8 classical bridge blanks ernie
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Sun May 01, 2011 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: traditional cabinetmakers varnish
You cut that thing right, and you'll get more than 8.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Sun May 01, 2011 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: traditional cabinetmakers varnish
While we are on the subject of varnishes, can you sand and add a coat or two to varnish a year or two after the original application? This is off-topic but I bought a rocking chair for the back porch at Cracker Barrel that was on clearance since it had been there since last year. The arms have the finish worn off in a couple of spots where folks have used it while waiting on meals. In their literature it say sit has a varnish finish and it was ok for inside or under a covered porch. I'm guessing it's some type of spar varnish but have no idea. I was thinking of touching up the chair arms if it would adhere ok.
Author:  woody b [ Sun May 01, 2011 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: traditional cabinetmakers varnish
Darryl Young wrote:
While we are on the subject of varnishes, can you sand and add a coat or two to varnish a year or two after the original application? This is off-topic but I bought a rocking chair for the back porch at Cracker Barrel that was on clearance since it had been there since last year. The arms have the finish worn off in a couple of spots where folks have used it while waiting on meals. In their literature it say sit has a varnish finish and it was ok for inside or under a covered porch. I'm guessing it's some type of spar varnish but have no idea. I was thinking of touching up the chair arms if it would adhere ok.



If it is Varnish scuff it with ~320 grit, and put more varnish on it.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Sun May 01, 2011 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: traditional cabinetmakers varnish
Thanks Woody!
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