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| Pantographs and Duplicators http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=31944 |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Pantographs and Duplicators |
This weekend, I will build the 3D Pantograph for the Colt router. I also want to build that duplicator using the drawer slides (using the Souix Pencil grinder). Anybody have the plans for that? Chris P? (Kieth's design) Mike |
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| Author: | nickton [ Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
nickton wrote: :?: And Ur point is? |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
Sorry Mike, I don't as I haven't gotten around to building one yet either. It's really pretty basic as you can see from the video. I tried to shoot the video so I could build from it. It will be determed from the size of your drawer slides. Just note from the video that when the top and bottom plate are registered over each other there is about 1/3 of the slides extended so the top plate can move right to left and the same front to back. And rack the hinges. I planned on puttting a T- track on mine instead of drilling holes for the cutter and stylus arms placement. I'm also thinking about other adjustments to make it a small 3D duplicator but that can be done after the base version is built. Keep in mind that Keith has this designed for just 2D inlaying. He also told me that you could connect a pantograph to it also. Also note that if you add another cutter you could cut multible pieces at once if need be. Depends how many grinders you can afford and size of unit and pieces. |
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| Author: | Dan Pennington [ Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
Here's my take on a duplicator/pantograph/copy carver for doing inlays.  It's loosely based on Keith McKenzie's rig. I made a few changes to Keith's design to go along with my thinking on the subject. I saw no need for the cutter arm and the stylus arm to be separately hinged, so I screwed them both to one plate and needed only two hinges. The only parts I bought for this were two sets of 14 inch drawer slides, two hinges, and a couple of cans of Friendly Plastic. The rest of the parts came right out of my wood scrap box and metal junk box.  The Dremel body was too large for a 2 3/4 in. Forsner bit, but too small for the 2 7/8 bit, so I added about three wraps of painter's tape and it fit the larger hole.  The stylus was made from some 1/4 in. rod that I ground down to a 1/16 in. point because I use a 1/16 in. bit in the Dremel.  After I played with the Friendly Plastic and one of my inlays for a couple of hours and made a pattern, I did one test routing using double sided tape to hold everything down. (Remember to put the pearl piece backwards into the plastic, so the pattern comes out forward.)  Half way through the job the tape started loosening up, so I'll have to figure out how to hold the pattern and the thing to be inlaid so they won't move - clamps, screws, hot glue. But I am happy with the way the machine (?) works so far. This will make routing for inlays a little easier and more accurate for me. But there is still some hand works to be done after this machine does it. The square corners still need to be cut with a chisel because the round bit leaves a rounded inside corner. |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
Strips of carpet tape(the kind with the fibers in it) near the edges will hold things down pretty good. I say strips near the edge so you can get a putty knife in there to break it loose. Making a clamp set like machinist use out of wood might also work for certain situations. Nice take on the duplicator. As long as it does what you want it to do is what matters. |
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| Author: | Mark Groza [ Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
Here's my take on the duplicator. It's big enough for neck carves and bodies. |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
Mark, I like it and is along the lines of something I have in mind to build. Do you also carve the heel with it? If so do you do it in that position or have you made a revolving vise that will rotate the work pieces around the long axis? |
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| Author: | Mark Groza [ Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
Chris Paulick wrote: Mark, I like it and is along the lines of something I have in mind to build. Do you also carve the heel with it? If so do you do it in that position or have you made a revolving vise that will rotate the work pieces around the long axis? Chris, I don't carve the heel with it, just use it to replicate a neck carve. Although it could be used to do that from the side held in a clamping jig if desired. The height of a heel would be too great for my trim router but a pencil grinder would work as is without a jig because my table distance to the sliding platform is over 4 ". |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
I wonder if a mill like this would do the trick? http://www.huronindustrial.com/mm5/merc ... e_Code=his |
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| Author: | ChuckB [ Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
Mark, How do you clamp your neck down? I have yet to carve a neck on my duplicarver. I use mine for logo inlays and binding, and most recently setting up to carve tuner buttons. I have found that the dremel has too much runout for inlays and am currently changing over to the Bosch Colt. Here are a few pics of mine. Chuck |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
Mark, where is the z-axis? (how is it implemented) Mike |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
Mike, the hinges in the back like Keith MacKenzie's. It's just basically a little larger scale. |
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| Author: | Mark Groza [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
Chuck, I'm still in the jig phase for bolting down my necks. Double stick tape would work if done before the fretboard is on. I plan on building a fixture that my bolt-on necks will fasten to at the heal end and another one that they will fasten through the tuner holes at the headstock end after the fretboard is on. |
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| Author: | Mark Groza [ Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
Mike O'Melia wrote: Mark, where is the z-axis? (how is it implemented) Mike Mike, As Chris has said, this one is is done with hinges that are racked to take up any slop and work good. However i'm going to improve on this design by useing drawer slides so it follows more of an up and down axis instead of the swinging motion there which will go in and out of deep pockets on a straighter axis. |
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| Author: | Dan Pennington [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
A couple of years ago, I built a copier/carver for making banjo necks.  No drawer slides or hinges. The movement used sections of dowel sliding and pivoting in routed and waxed grooves. I don't remember where I borrowed the idea from.  It worked, but it was as much work as doing the shaping by hand with rasps and files. And ten times noisier! I do neck shaping mostly by hand now. |
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| Author: | Dave Stewart [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
Dan, that's John Sargent's duplicarver....plans at MIMF. |
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| Author: | Dan Pennington [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
Thanks, Dave. You're right. I think I got it on the MIMF. Dan |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
Mark Groza wrote: Mike O'Melia wrote: Mark, where is the z-axis? (how is it implemented) Mike Mike, As Chris has said, this one is is done with hinges that are racked to take up any slop and work good. However i'm going to improve on this design by useing drawer slides so it follows more of an up and down axis instead of the swinging motion there which will go in and out of deep pockets on a straighter axis. I think, a more compact concept, and one that would have no "play" would be to use a parallelogram linkage, just like on the Williams Binding cutter. (I think Chris P alluded to this earlier as Keith M.'s idea). I would only use a Souix type pencil grinder (lightweight). The fact that the parallelogram hinge swings in an arc is compensated by the free floating platform which is on bearings. I have also thought about other ideas to add "degrees of freedom". Mike |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
I've always thought about a stacked dupicator simply because it would take up less of a footprint and you could have cutting section inclosed for better dust and noise control. But then again it all depends on what size you need for what you want to duplicate. Interesting take on these duplicators. Hope there are more coming. |
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| Author: | Dan Pennington [ Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
Here's a 3D pantograph made by a jig genius in Canada. He's got a lot of other neat stuff on his website. http://www.youtube.com/user/Matthiaswan ... tm4u583YOQ I don't know how to get the video to show here. Maybe someone else does and can fix it. |
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| Author: | dunwell [ Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
Clever design. I wonder about long-term usage though. He doesn't use any bushings, probably not really needed but he also doesn't use any washers or wear resistant items where the arms rub against each other. Also with pulling and pushing the pins for the different settings I'm guessing the holes would wear after a bit. Last of all is the vertical pivot is just a tilt so if you were doing mandolin plates for example or necks your cutting tool might be coming in at an angle. It would be easy enough to just build another parallagram thing for the vertical part though or just set it high enough relative to the baseboard so work could be blocked up to the optimum level. All my points are really very picky, overall it looks like a good, easy to build, accurate rig. Clever. Alan D. |
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| Author: | Dan Pennington [ Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
Here's the latest on my McKenzie Machine (inlay copier). I think I've solved my hold down problems by screwing down the plastic pattern and using some L-shaped blocks with screws for the peg head or fingerboard toe be inlaid.  I cut a sample hole in this banjo peg head template. The result was a hair too small for the pearl inlay to fit into, so I reground the stylist tip a hair thinner. I recut the hole and squared off the corners inside the hole and the inlay slides right in. I think it's a winner. |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
dunwell wrote: Clever design. I wonder about long-term usage though. He doesn't use any bushings, probably not really needed but he also doesn't use any washers or wear resistant items where the arms rub against each other. Also with pulling and pushing the pins for the different settings I'm guessing the holes would wear after a bit. Last of all is the vertical pivot is just a tilt so if you were doing mandolin plates for example or necks your cutting tool might be coming in at an angle. It would be easy enough to just build another parallagram thing for the vertical part though or just set it high enough relative to the baseboard so work could be blocked up to the optimum level. All my points are really very picky, overall it looks like a good, easy to build, accurate rig. Clever. Alan D. That's the same design and video the Mike posted in his pantograph discussion guys. The pantograph is used to change the scale and not to duplicate. Keith's design is a duplicator and not a true pantograph. I think or a pantograph to be 3D it has to pivot and not slide vertically or it won't change the scale as if the original goes from 1/4" to 3/8" in heigth and you were 1/2 scale it has to go from 1/8" to 3/16". Now if you could add a parallelgram setup between the stylus and cutter that's another story. Also remember with a 3D pantograph your stylus and cutter should be scaled the same unless you are using a piont but the point should be the same angle. |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Mon May 02, 2011 8:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pantographs and Duplicators |
Well I finished up the travel part to my take on Keith's inlay duplicator. Now to mount it to a base and make the tool holders. It's a tad larger then needed for inlay but I have some other ideas for it. |
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