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| Neck lamination question http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=31893 |
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| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Neck lamination question |
I am thinking of doing a laminated neck with fiber for the thin black strips but am a little leery about the strength of this materials joint to the other woods. I would hate for the neck to come apart at the fiber joint. Who has done this and is it strong enough? Fred |
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| Author: | Laurent Brondel [ Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
Yes. |
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| Author: | gozierdt [ Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
I've done it, and I've seen many more use it on the forum. There is a very large surface area, and the glue penetrates the fiber very well. I've never had, or never heard of, anyone having a problem. |
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| Author: | Steve Kinnaird [ Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
It works just fine, Fred. Use a good glue, that will be the greater consideration. Steve |
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| Author: | nickton [ Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
Sounds like a good candidate for epoxy too. I wonder what dampening effects if any it might have. |
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| Author: | DarrenFiggs [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
How wide can you go? .020 and no more? Or maybe .010 is the limit? Would you use these fiber veneers in a bass neck? |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
I've also done it and it worked well. I used Titebond 1 although if I did it now I would likely use fish glue. |
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| Author: | Kent Chasson [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
There's not much stress on the neck in a direction that would cause a lamination like that to fail, assuming you're talking about a veneer that runs perpendicular to the fingerboard. I would hesitate to use it in an orientation that would make it peel, split or creep. The material itself (not the glue joint) is much weaker than any neck wood in bending or shear. |
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| Author: | David Newton [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
I've never used fiber for any purpose other than a purfling line. Without really thinking about it, I don't like the idea of using the fiber in a neck lam. So... I thought about how to test it. Take a piece of the fiber, and take a similar sized piece of good Honduras, and test them both to destruction. See where this is going? Without even doing the test, I can see the fiber will work great in a neck lam. |
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| Author: | runamuck [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
I've used fiber in rosettes and have had the fiber come apart. However, in the case of rosettes the dimension is quite small - about 1/8" in width. |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
Maybe it works, but I would be very uncomfortable about it. The problem would not be gluing; it would be the material itself under peeling or shear stress. |
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| Author: | Dave Fifield [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
Why take the risk? Black dyed wood veneers are readily available from multiple sources. Just my 2c worth... Dave F. |
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| Author: | Kim [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
So, out of all the hundreds if not thousands of beautiful necks laminated up by John Watkins CNC with black fibre (fishpaper) that have now been put on guitars and sent out into the world of playerdom...how many have come back with a delamination issue or some other problem related to black fibre?? I have not heard of any myself so it would be interesting to hear of what the situation is in the USA. Cheers Kim |
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| Author: | Mark Groza [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
Being a different material than the wood it's glued to, i'd be more concerned about creep from uneven shrinkage to the finish causing craze. |
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| Author: | DarrenFiggs [ Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
I looked into this a little further. Though Fishpaper and Vulcanized Fiber are composed of cellulose, they differ in tensile strength (among other things) according to this website: http://www.thrustin.com/fish-paper.php So, which one are we getting from suppliers? Regular VF or Electrical Grade VF (Fishpaper)? Also, if I may quote Wikipedia's entry on applications of Vulcanized Fiber, it reads: "Wood Laminating: Tough, multi-directional tensile and torsion strength, provides support and strength wherever wood laminations are used, particularly used under thin and exotic veneers as a stabilizer/strengthener." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcanized_fibre) Provides support and strength? Interesting............. |
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| Author: | Kim [ Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
DarrenFiggs wrote: Provides support and strength? Interesting............. Yes, its the idea product for our application...As for which one we are getting from the supplier??? I can't answer that but I do know that a few guys on the ANZLF looked at getting some in bulk from the Asian manufacturer shipped direct to Australia..all was going along swimmingly with choice of thickness and even colours being and option. That was of course until it was made clear that the...minimum order stated as 1 roll would cause some issues...each roll is 1000 metres long and if memory serves is about 600mm wide and weighs in at around 1 metric ton....pass. So, who ever has this stuff in the USA that is making it available to the retails probably has a lot of it and the price that we pay is a reflection of the initial cost + shipping + long term storage as it slowly makes its way out the door. Cheers Kim |
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| Author: | James Howard [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
This is only my second post on the forum so hopefully it works. I am normally a guest at the bottom of the page. I have tried two black fibers for the laminations with a cherry strip between them. It was the width of the truss rod slot. It was fine for about 2 years and in the summer the fiber let go at the end of the truss rod by the nut. It might work if the laminations were wider than the truss rod slot, so there was more glue surface. James Howard www.HowardGuitars.com |
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| Author: | Kim [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
Hello James, nice to see you off the guest list. Can you tell us if the fibre you used was fishpaper i.e. sintered fibre paper as used in the electrical industry? Also it would help if you told us what glue you had used. This is relevant as yours is the very first record I have seen of a bond failure attributed fibre material. There appears to be a number of different products on the market, including just plain heavy paper that is made available for, or assumed to be OK for laminating. Therefore I think we need to be careful to differentiate one from the other in these threads if we are to avoid tarring all products, even those that work very well, with the same brush. To anyone else reading this, I put this question earlier but will represent as I've had no response: John Watkins of CNC Guitar Parts use to be a sponsor here. He sold many, many necks to members of this forum that had black fibre between the main wood lamination. Has anyone here experienced any sort of issue with any of those necks that was related to the black fibre material ??? If so, could you please make a post in this thread that clearly describes what you consider the issue was and how it related to that material. Cheers Kim |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
I've been using the black fiber sheets from LMI. I've used them in necks as the center laminate between the two main pieces and under the peghead overlay. I generally use fish glue for these and have had no problems in about 4 years. I briefly tried using the fiber behind bindings and once in a rosette. It didn't work well for me so I gave up pretty quick and have been using wood (and some plastic) for those ever since. |
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| Author: | DarrenFiggs [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck lamination question |
Laurent, is that fiber veneer running down the middle of the neck on that gorgeous guitar you posted under "The 5 Hour Guitar"? |
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