But if you copy it for your "own" use there is no legal recourse that I am aware of. Then again I am not a lawyer, nor did I play one on TV
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| Patents and Lutherie http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=31817 |
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| Author: | Chris Beebe [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Patents and Lutherie |
So I was looking at McPhersons brace pattern online and was thinking it might be nice to do a McPherson copy sometime but then I got to thinking about how it may infringe on their patent. Legally, can a guitar be made for ones own use when there is a patent out there? |
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| Author: | MetalOne72 [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
The answer is yes. You just cant sell. |
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| Author: | Parser [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
Just change it a little. They can't patent every variation of the bracing pattern. Thus, the problem with patenting any of this stuff... Trev |
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| Author: | MetalOne72 [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
But if you copy it for your "own" use there is no legal recourse that I am aware of. Then again I am not a lawyer, nor did I play one on TV
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| Author: | SteveCourtright [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
The answer is definitely NO. IF you infringe the claims of the patent and the patent is still in force you can't just make something for yourself. Patent rights include the right to stop others from "making, using or selling" the patented device or practicing the patented method. If you are going to give other people legal advice, you really should check your facts first. Please people, don't answer a question, any question, unless you actually know the answer. |
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| Author: | Marc Lupien [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
Of course, Steve is right... However to know what youncan do, you must understand what the patent covers... For that, you need an expert to give you his report on the construction of the claims, which may be expensive! |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
My approach: Run for dear life from anything that has the word patent near it. |
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| Author: | Dave Fifield [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
Well, not quite true. You can make anything you want, regardless of any patent. You just have to be prepared to be sued for patent infringement. It's highly unlikely that the patent holder will ever get to hear about your infringement, and even if they did, if you just used their idea once to make something for your personal use only, they will not bother to sue since their lawyers fees will far exceed any potential garnishment they would get from you. It's a gamble, yes, but a pretty safe bet that you'll never be sued IMO. It's my experience that if you write a nice email/letter to the patent holder and simply ask them if you can have a license to make a single unit for your own personal use and enjoyment, and that you will acknowledge their idea everytime the item gets shown, they will acquiesce and actually be delighted that you even bothered to ask. Dave F. |
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| Author: | SteveCourtright [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
Marc Lupien wrote: Of course, Steve is right... However to know what youncan do, you must understand what the patent covers... For that, you need an expert to give you his report on the construction of the claims, which may be expensive! Exactly so, Marc. Thanks for chiming in. |
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| Author: | MetalOne72 [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
I stand corrected. I have always heard the contrary. I apologize for any misguidance. |
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| Author: | SteveCourtright [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
Dave Fifield wrote: Well, not quite true. You can make anything you want, regardless of any patent. You just have to be prepared to be sued for patent infringement. It's highly unlikely that the patent holder will ever get to hear about your infringement, and even if they did, if you just used their idea once to make something for your personal use only, they will not bother to sue since their lawyers fees will far exceed any potential garnishment they would get from you. It's a gamble, yes, but a pretty safe bet that you'll never be sued IMO. It's my experience that if you write a nice email/letter to the patent holder and simply ask them if you can have a license to make a single unit for your own personal use and enjoyment, and that you will acknowledge their idea everytime the item gets shown, they will acquiesce and actually be delighted that you even bothered to ask. Dave F. A very common sense approach, Dave, and in our business of building guitars one that would likely be successful. Just ask first. In my experience, though, lots of people DO get sued for patent infringement NOT because there is significant money involved, but most often it is just because someone pissed off someone else. I have been doing this for over 20 years and see it all of the time... |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
I agree with some of what is said here. Dave is right about contacting him and tell him your intentions. He will probably say "sure!". Then again, he might not. It reminds me of the copying of c.d.s. I felt guilty about copying some David Lindley c.d.s once, and sent money to the artist. I just gave the copies to friends. I feel better, and you might not feel so good, if you copy his bracing without permission. Oh, the dreaded guilty drednaught. |
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
Knowing McPherson.. I would greatly doubt he (I say he, but you won't reach Matt M. himself) will let you use it. Furthermore knowing the bracing system, ect I can't imagine why one would really want to copy it. |
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| Author: | Laurent Brondel [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
SteveCourtright wrote: Please people, don't answer a question, any question, unless you actually know the answer. That quote should be at the head of every thread, at least for a while.
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| Author: | Andy Birko [ Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
Dave Fifield wrote: You just have to be prepared to be sued for patent infringement. Depending on the patent's claim and exactly what you're copying, this may be pretty easy as well. The thing is that the patent office is very lax on checking prior art before issuing a patent. Basically, they're giving out patents for things that are un-patentable because there's plenty of existing prior art proving that the patent is truly not a novel idea. I had this come up just recently. There's a fellow who patented a "Zero Pressure Bridge". HIs particular implementation is indeed unique and novel but the claims portion of his patent covers designs that have been around for at least a 100 years. My instruments use a variant on the Zero Pressure Bridge and just on the off chance that he decides to come after me, I've collected a number of documents proving that the design is in fact, prior art. e.g.: Here's a book from 1978 showing a picture of a design very close to mine: http://books.google.com/books?id=oejZDX ... ge&f=false His patent covers this in his claims and the design he's using is nothing like this. If tries to come after me, plan "A" is to show him this documentation of prior art and point out to him that he'll lose the case but his lawyers will gain a lot of his cash (they get paid either way). Plan B is to go to court and and figure out if there's some way to recover lawyer's fees from him. |
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| Author: | Bob Garrish [ Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
Andy Birko wrote: If tries to come after me, plan "A" is to show him this documentation of prior art and point out to him that he'll lose the case but his lawyers will gain a lot of his cash (they get paid either way). Plan B is to go to court and and figure out if there's some way to recover lawyer's fees from him. Don't forget plan C : karate. I've had a good list of potential clients talking about NDAs and all kinds of jazz for their 'innovations'...only one wasn't the inventor of a 30-120 year old idea and he never asked for an NDA! |
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| Author: | Andy Birko [ Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
Bob Garrish wrote: Don't forget plan C : karate. Or plan S&W. |
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| Author: | evanmelstad [ Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
Interesting and potentially relevant: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/16/opinion/16Lichtman.html |
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| Author: | blahblahwoofwoof [ Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
Laurent Brondel wrote: SteveCourtright wrote: Please people, don't answer a question, any question, unless you actually know the answer. That quote should be at the head of every thread, at least for a while.Oh man where's the fun in that! |
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| Author: | RonaldD [ Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
Doesn't almost everybody copy a Martin. especially a D28?????? Plans of Ramirez, Martin and Hauser are being sold and copied as a finish product all the time. And albeit Hauser plans are from Hauser 1; he does have lineage in Hauser3 still making guitars. Ronald |
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| Author: | Mike Mahar [ Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
One of the reasons for the patent system is keep innovations from becoming trade secrets. Protection is offered for a short time so the the inventor can profit from his work but the rest of the world also learns what was done. For this system to work, the patent must expire. The expiration date of a patent has changed and I don't know what it is currently. However, if you are worried about a patent, check the expiration date. I believe Novix fan fret patent has expired, for example. The trade name "fan fret" however is copyrighted and copyrights last a very long time. |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
Of course everyone copies Martins .. they arent patented !!! I read once where Chris Matin said they never would patent the shapes .. they had already been copied a million times at least .... |
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| Author: | nickton [ Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
I heard Takamine was sued for building exact Martin copies. |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
I believe that if you are sued that in order for the patent holder to receive any money they must show monetary damage. That amount of damage would be awarded. That's why copying a patented idea for personal use is not very risky. (For those that know, please let me know if this is right.) That being said, I think it is wrong to copy something that is not yours to copy and patents should be honored, unless they are understood/known to be bogus - like fanned frets. |
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| Author: | RonaldD [ Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Patents and Lutherie |
About Takamine and CF Martin, It was about the gold foil logo on the headstock. Same lettering and spacing as Martin and it said Takamine Est. 1960 |
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