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Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=31654		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  cwood8656 [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
I agree 100% with you on this. An aspect that you didn't mention that is bugging me right now is the damage done to the top during the scraping process. I have a box with an Engelmann top on the bench right now. I've been very careful with it, and there still is a small amount of damage that I can trace back to scraping back the purfling and binding. Hate it.


Chris.
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
You may not want to hear it but the easiest way to get your side purflings on is to sell all your individual strips and buy some stock where you can cut your own bindings with the purflings pre-glued up. That method is pretty headache free and assures a good match for all the bindings. I do understand though that it is a pain if you have a ton of strips

I switched over to using white glue for the bindings and after taping them down wrapping everything in surgical tubing. It has made that part of the process almost stress free for me and I , like you, used to really hate it. The scraping goes quickly and that evil CA mess is nowhere to be found. I am I think right at that point on my documented build, I will probably post that part tonight although it is pretty self explanatory.

I feel your pain about the binding and purfling, I used to dread it also. The photo you showed looks great though, I like the green against the BRW.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
Seems to me that if you used HHG most of those problems would disappear. Just use a hot damp cloth to clean up the glue lumps.
Author:  SteveT [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
Burton LeGeyt wrote:

I switched over to using white glue for the bindings


I've been using Garret Wade's slow drying white glue. Gives a relatively long working time & cleans up very easily with scraping. Tests with scrap show the glue to be strong, & no bindings have ever come loose. I also use it for my top purflings, which I glue up on a form to match the plantilla & then glue in as a unit.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
Sometimes a flat block with 80-100 grit can go faster than a scraper. In the past I have also used a flush cut router bit in the binding machine to get a head start but it's kinda sketchy. I've also used the robosander. Every method kind of sucks in it's own way. These days it's the flat block and a decent record. Or two. Also, if you're feeling adventurous, the drum of an edge sander will speed things along mightily, but it's not without risk...
Author:  Matt Shumway [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
I just got done doing some binding and I used fish glue. I would paint a bit on the binding channel and on the inside of the binding, just enough to get it a bit wet, then I would slowly tape everything up while wicking in some thinned out fish glue as I went around. Hopefully it will be strong enough, I hadn't seen anyone else using that method. Its been a week or so now though and so far everything seems fine. It was easy to clean up when it was still wet (just wipe it off) and it didn't seem to cause any problems scraping either.
Author:  James Orr [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
Burton LeGeyt wrote:
I am I think right at that point on my documented build, I will probably post that part tonight although it is pretty self explanatory.


I'd love to see it as well.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
I don't super glue my bindings except to tack down the miters. LMI FCA for non-wood and LMI white for wood but you still get those little bumps of glue and tape residue. I always sand those off with a hard block with adhesive backed paper on it, then scrape. I've had problems with the scraper bouncing off them and tearing out little pieces of the binding.

The top is tough. I usually block sand as much as possible and just scrape at the end trying to hold a good curve in the scraper and putting tape over the sharp corners. Seems there is always some little ding to sand out near the head and tail blocks at the end.

I heat the tape pretty warm with a hair dryer and it usually comes off OK but it's always a chore.

I've never done multiple lamination but for a single bwb strip on wood bindings Tightbond and office binder clips seems to work pretty well and run them through the thickness sander afterwards to get one good side. You have to be careful not to glue the clip to the fiber. I put them closer together than in the picture.

Looking forward to more posts on this topic because it's not a solved issue for me either.

Image
Author:  Gregg C [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
I never use CA, all you need is Titebond and a warm damp cloth,
Also IMO wood bindings with bwb trim is the only way to go, see this link,
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bindings,_t ... dings.html

Gregg
Author:  brenbrenCT [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
that looks like a LOT of CA. granted i get little bumps, but not like that. have you tried less glue in general?

b
Author:  alan stassforth [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
Filippo,
your end result is flawless,
and beautiful.
I wouldn't even attempt that.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
I'm with Burton, it's a lot better to make your purfling sheets, glue some on a stick and rip your bindings.
The rare times when I glue purfling strips on individual bindings I use either TB1 or Gorilla wood glue. Put a bit of glue on bindings and purfs strips on the first few inches of the stack, clamp the first inch or so of the stack in a vice (don't mash it!), then I run beads of glue on the bindings/purfs and glue them with finger pressure, the tack is strong enough. I hold the stack and run through the length vertically between index and thumb of the right hand, and horizontally between index and thumb of the left (or vice versa) a few times. I then do the same thing with a damp cloth to clean excess glue, then dry with paper towel and set aside to cure for at least 45 minutes. It takes about 5 minutes per binding.
I also pre-glue purfling lines by pairs this way if I have a lot of purfs in the design: it makes it much easier to manage 2 or 3 stacks than 10 purfling lines at once.
I am in the process of eliminating CA as I have become allergic since last year. I attached bindings/purfs with CA on a lot of guitars, but have come back to TB1 maybe 10 guitars ago.
If you keep using CA I think the 3M green tape (233) is much better: it is both elastic and firm and will keep the binding tight without breaking or stretching, and is much easier to remove than the thick brown tape. When binding with CA I dimension my bindings and rabbets to be absolutely exact so there is very little to scrape except excess glue. I also used a pipette to wick the thin CA, and not the bottle… If there is a small gap after removing the tape, heat gun (moderately) and CA pipette will fix it.
Also it is nearly impossible to achieve a seamless joint with clear woods purfs (maple) and CA: even if the joint is as tight as can be, there is always a faint dark line. Annoying. With yellow glue it is hard not to make a seamless joint, the moisture seems to mesh the fibres together. Furthermore I find it much less stressful to bind with TB1 because, again, the moisture in the glue makes the binding and purfs more pliable and less prone to breaking, especially at the waist and cutaway. For some mitres I tack the mitre with Gorilla wood glue beforehand. I do the end wedge (and cutaway mitres if any) after binding the whole body. Framed end wedges, I do before binding. Celluloid nitrate bindings can be glued with wood glue if you brush them with acetone right before gluing. Hope this helps.
Author:  Stephen Boone [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
On my last two guitars I have been installing all the purflings and bindings in separate operations. First the top purflings, then the back purflings, then the side purflings. All the mitering of the purflings is simplified and I fit every thing before gluing. Using titebond or ca or fish glue depending on circumstances. No stress. After all that I have a simple channel left for the bindings. After each stage I am able to clean up the channels and insure a perfect fit of the next item. If I see that something is a poor fit after a stage it is easy to pull the problem out and start over or repair as needed. It takes much longer this way, of course, but I have had zero stress, (very important to me) and the best results ever for me.
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
Stephen, I am doing them separately also. I have been using Olson's method of using a fake binding of teflon to install the purflings which has been working beautifully. I did add these steps to my build thread if anyone is interested in seeing it. Certainly not the only way to do it but it has been working well for me.
Author:  woodbutcher50 [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
I don't see any mention of it yet, but I use TB-III. The one time I forgot and used TB-I for the first in a set, it was the only one that had any separation issues from the heat of the bender. The other three pieces came through just Jim Dandy.

I also glue the bindings on the body with TB-I and the LMI binding tape.

I just got done flooding a rosette with CA and am so glad the acetone was close by, or I would have glued my hands together! :o

Mark
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
I have allergy issues with CA too, so I use as little as possible, though I do use it in some instances, in very small amounts and very carefully. My allergy started after gluing nails on for playing for a couple of years. Eventually, my fingers started to itch, terribly. Now, if I get it on my hands and touch my neck or a tender part of my face, I'll break out there. I am also, now, terribly allergic to the fumes as well, and will have sever asthma symptoms for several days if exposed to too much of it, particularly if I use an accelerator. My Asthma Specialist told me it's the Toluene in the products that are the kicker.
Author:  Stephen Boone [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
Laurent,

Thank you for the info about maple and CA leaving a dark line. I did not think about the CA being the problem. I figured I just needed to do better work. ( I still can do better work for sure.) No more CA and maple!
Author:  Ken Franklin [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
There is a lot of good advice here already but I'll add my 2 cents.

Gluing purfling lines on individual binding strips is a slow and sometimes messy process. I think Laurent's suggestions are the best if you wish to continue to do that. But I think that gluing up sheets and ripping your own bindings with the purfling on is the best way to go as Burton suggests. Maybe you could sell your bindings in the classifieds and move on.

I was having some issues with white residue in the pores with LMI white so I switched back to CA. It isn't good for light colored wood that's glued to light colored wood, as Laurent states, but it works fine for dark to light. I think the problems you are having with excessive cleanup have to do with too much glue and the wrong tape as has been suggested.

Also, I have come up with a method which eliminates most of the mess and time consuming clean up. I use green 3M tape to tightly fit the binding and purfling in place and get my miters fit. Then I take out a three inch section of tape and wick in the CA with a pipette from the top. I wipe any excess CA and retape the three inch section with strapping tape and then green tape. This keeps almost all of the CA from wicking along the tape. The strapping tape doesn't wick the CA much but it doesn't hold well so the green tape keeps things tight. After I take the tape off I CA the top and side of the binding carefully in case the CA did not wick in everywhere. I get a tighter fit and cleaner results with this method than I did with the method where I taped, tacked in CA, untaped and wicked in CA.

For scraping, I sand lightly first to keep from snagging on any glue bumps. I use a ground single edge razor blade instead of a scraper. When it dulls a quick trip to the grinder and I'm ready to go. I sand with a small ebony block when I'm pretty close to level.

The fish glue idea might be a good way to go for light to light wood.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
Filippo Morelli wrote:
Laurent, thanks for the lengthy and detailed reply. I am sorry to hear about the CA issues - may I ask what are the symptoms?
Essentially asthma symptoms (I do not have asthma). Last fall I had an episode after mildly using CA (gluing/joining a back and flooding the centre strip I think) where afterward I had intense running nose and eyes, tightness in the chest and difficulty breathing. It lasted all day, I had to leave the shop and rest. Awful. That's where I discovered that allergies can be cumulative, and in a nasty way. Of course one can use the more expensive odourless CA, however I am sure that it still has a somewhat negative effect for somebody already sensitised. I phased out using CA almost entirely.
I would advise those who already find the smell of CA objectionable to diminish its use to the bare minimum and find alternatives. Forget about pore-filling with CA…

Stephen Boone wrote:
Thank you for the info about maple and CA leaving a dark line. I did not think about the CA being the problem. I figured I just needed to do better work. ( I still can do better work for sure.) No more CA and maple!
It drove me crazy for a long time as I use a lot of thick curly maple lines. I had "almost" perfect joints on most guitars, but always that very faint darker line. Sometimes it would only appears while spraying the seal coat. I didn't see how I could do better: razor sharp chisels, magnifier, perfect before wicking the CA. When I switched back to TB1 I had perfect joints, all the time… Life is so simple.
Author:  alan stassforth [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
Somebody told me that when you use kicker with CA, you create cyanide vapor.
I got a hit of that once and it didn't feel good.
Use a mask, or don't breath while using it.
I got a pretty good job with a maple on maple binding job with the tb1.
Blond on blond is hard.
Author:  nickton [ Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
thanks for all the info y'all. I think you were reading my mind as to what stage I'm on with this latest build. How does that happen? I just spent the day re doing my binder routing setup, and then ripping small strips and bending them. Haven't even done any body purflings yet and this is my first try at "staircase" routing :shock:
Author:  David LaPlante [ Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
Filippo, I would echo much of what has been said here, glue up veneers and strip your bindings out from stock, stop using CA, I think it's far too aggressive for this particular job as well as horrible clean up against spruce etc.
I use fish glue and only use as much tape (common garden variety masking) as is needed to hold the bindings until I can "Bind" with cloth tape, which is really what provides the pressure to hold them. I always remove the tape immediatly once the cloth tape is on to facilitate the drying of the glue.
I use swedish style knives:
http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/Mo ... 5Qoda16mcw
for scraping the bindings flush with the sides and a file to level them with the top and back before sanding. The curvature of the blade allows you to precisely remove wood only where you want and the handle allows better control of the blade angle and well as comfort.
Attachment:
binding-003.jpg
Author:  JasonMoe [ Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
green tape rules...thats it...Jason
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
This has been one of the best threads we've had in a while.
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Thoughts on purfling and binding installation
Terence Kennedy wrote:
This has been one of the best threads we've had in a while.


+1
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