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Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
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Author:  chinito [ Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:27 am ]
Post subject:  Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
I've seen many pictures of guitars being built and there seems to be a lot of variance in the size of dentellones/tentellones/peones. I'm currently using individual blocks that are approximately 1/4" wide x 1/4" deep and find gluing them very tedious. Gluing the top to the sides took waaaaaaay too long. gaah Or I could just be impatient.

Would anyone here like to share the size of blocks they prefer?

Thanks,

-Jake.
Author:  DennisK [ Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
Agreed... the first batch I made was 1/4" x 1/4", and took all day. However, even at that size it bothers me just a bit that there's somewhat of a glue-filled gap where the flat tentellon surface is glued to the tight inside curve of the upper bout.

I think next time, I'll either make two sizes and choose depending on curvature at the current location, or make them all 5/16"-3/8" wide and sand a convex curve into half of them to get good contact on inside curves. Maybe still some 1/4" wide ones for the waist though, or attempt to sand a concave curve.

There's also the style in Ervin Somogyi's "making" book, using kerfed linings, but cutting them into lumps of 3 and gluing as tentellones. He also mentions the point of whether to sand a slight angle into the surface that glues to the soundboard, to help maintain the dome. Seems like a good idea, I think I'll give it a try.
Author:  Stephen Boone [ Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
Mine are 7mm wide X 8mm deep X 15mm high and I budget two hours for gluing on. I snuggle mine next to one another usually but on one guitar I left 2mm spaces between the tentellones. This shortened the time to install and that particular guitar has a sound that I like. It is worth investigation to see if tentellone spacing has an effect on tone. I have seen examples of guitars built with empty spaces between the tentellones as large as the tentellones themselves. Leaving gaps makes cleanup more tedious by having to get in between all the little blocks so you lose some time there.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
Mine are varied in size, but generally, are 8 mm x 10 mm or 10 mm x 10 mm. I also leave a little space between them - eyeballed to a couple of mm's. It does take a couple of hours, holding each block for 30 seconds or so with a stick, using HHG.
Author:  mqbernardo [ Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
slightly off-topic, just a side comment. if what i was informed is correct, dentellones (meaning something like big teeth) is a term borrowed from medieval architecture (a type of fitting) and is used mainly in the Valencian community. Peones (or tacos) is the more common name used elsewhere.

Do correct me if i´m wrong on this.

Cheers,
Miguel.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
Nah, I think you'll just have to live with your misery! I sand each and every one.
Author:  David LaPlante [ Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
Two hours?...geez, it takes me longer. Anyway, you can see the size of my blocks here and the fact that I use a little "spear" to hold them while the glue goes on and to place.
I do sand a bevel into each one that goes around the domed portion of the top. Even though this operation seems tedious it's really one of the areas where the rubber meets the road on the guitar I think.
Attachment:
Laplante#96Dentellones.jpg

Attachment:
Laplante#96Dentellones2.jpg

Yes, Miguel I think you are correct on that.......
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
David LaPlante wrote:
Yes, Miguel I think you are correct on that.......


Yeah? Well, I'd have to know the definition of "tacos". Probably not what I'm thinking right now! [xx(] :D
Author:  Markus Schmid [ Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
Filippo Morelli wrote:
Fabricating them is a bigger issue than gluing them in. Largely because the little spruce pieces get fuzzies when cutting [...]

(and for anyone else that figured out how to make these little buggers quickly and without have to sand fuzzies off of each one, fess up your approach and put me out of my misery!)


Do you already use a dedicated caul which helps preventing tear out where the blade exits (zero clearance)? You'll still have to sand but probably not that much as you had to. You also might try cutting them with a blade for metal (personally I don't like using metal cutting blades on wood but some people feel more comfortable with those many-teeth blades). I use the small Proxxon tablesaw for cutting the peones, the "big" Proxxon would be even better (more power). I hardly get fuzzy edges at all unless the blade gets dull.

About the dentellones/tentellones/peones: It's strange, I only have seen the term "dentellones" (with "d" ) on English written websites and forums or related sites to such ones, but never in Spanish written literature, websites or forums where I only have seen tentellones (with "t" ), and of course peones. But of course I may miss something and all of the three terms are more or less well established. The funny thing is that the term "tentellón" does not exist in the official Spanish dictionary but "dentellón" does, having the meaning that has been supposed before in this thread.

Back to the thread-opening question: I "speed up" such operations by doing something else while dedicating my time to such tasks - normally enjoying some nice music. When doing more demanding work I can't listen to any music at the same time, it would distract me too much.
Author:  Markus Schmid [ Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
WaddyThomson wrote:
Yeah? Well, I'd have to know the definition of "tacos". Probably not what I'm thinking right now! [xx(] :D

Taco in the Diccionario de la Lengua Española of the Real Academia Española:
1.) Piece of wood, metal or other material, short and thick, which fits in some hole.
2.) Piece of wood, short and thick.

...and then, taco has 25 more meanings! :lol:
Author:  Tim Mullin [ Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
Markus Schmid wrote:
About the dentellones/tentellones/peones: It's strange, I only have seen the term "dentellones" (with "d" ) on English written websites and forums or related sites to such ones, but never in Spanish written literature, websites or forums where I only have seen tentellones (with "t" ), and of course peones. But of course I may miss something and all of the three terms are more or less well established.

"Dentellones" (singular "Dentellón") is perfectly good Spanish used in architecture and masonary, referring to "toothing/locking stones" on a wall -- it is NOT applicable to lutherie, but frequently appears as a misspelling.
"Tentellones" is the correct term for the little blocks glued at the junction of top and side of stringed instruments. It is a specialised word -- I don't know the original derivation or history of use.

I find the installation of tentellones to be a very peaceful and relaxing activity. Find a comfortable stool, good light, a sanding board conveniently placed to remove the fuzzies as you put them in place. Put on some nice music, or just enjoy the silence.
Author:  John A [ Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
Tacos - usually refers to a piece of wood used as a wedge. So for example when you are trying to prop something up, you can put a little taco under it to hold it up. Keep in mind that is how I learned it was used in my family, although as we can see Spanish is spread between many countries and each word can have various meanings.
Author:  Markus Schmid [ Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
John A wrote:
Tacos - usually refers to a piece of wood used as a wedge. [...] although as we can see Spanish is spread between many countries and each word can have various meanings.

I agree.
There also exists the taco de lijar (= sanding block), or also the end block where the sides meet is a taco. The peones, rather than tacos are also sometimes called taquitos (little tacos).
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
No matter how hard I try I can't see how our blocks were not initially labeled as dentellones since they look 1000% as the architectural thing. (or simply as teeth, which prompted both comparisons) The t in itself has no meaning, while the D is indeed from dens/dentis, tooth in latin.

Image
Author:  Ken Franklin [ Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
For me the word is not important in solving the problem here. But I don't really think the problem is a problem. Take your time and do a nice fitting job which won't lead to future problems that will surely take more time to remedy than the little extra time it takes to do it well in the first place. Unless you are in a factory being paid by the piece there is no advantage in rushing things.
Author:  George L [ Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
I've often wondered about the different words associated with these pieces. Tacos (and taquitos) are among my favorite foods, so I think I'll adopt that usage. :-)

So far I've only used kerfed linings, but am considering trying taquitos on my next guitar. The discussion above of size, placement and glues is very helpful. If anyone has advice or a reference on how to make these little guys, wood preferences, etc., I would appreciate the guidance. I found a couple of things via Google, but they are in Spanish and that is lost on me.

Thanks,
Author:  David LaPlante [ Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
Jose' Romanillos' take on this was that the American (or English) author who used the "T" word mis-heard the "D" word and passed it down incorrectly.
...........just to confuse things even more........


I think I'll just start calling them "glue blocks" <G>
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
I refuse to put "Tacos" in my guitars! gaah
Author:  mqbernardo [ Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
David LaPlante wrote:
Jose' Romanillos' take on this was that the American (or English) author who used the "T" word mis-heard the "D" word and passed it down incorrectly.
...........just to confuse things even more........
Maybe it has something to do with the T consonant sound being the voiceless version of D, the more sonorus version. Seems plausible to me to make that mistake while translating from ear. Anyway, further venturing into off-topic turf . Sorry for that.

Cheers,
Miguel.
Author:  murrmac [ Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
David LaPlante wrote:
Jose' Romanillos' take on this was that the American (or English) author who used the "T" word mis-heard the "D" word and passed it down incorrectly.


Unquestionably so.

"Tentellones" is what we in the folk music community term a "Mondegreen"

This term derives from a printed version of the Scottish folk song "The Earl of Moray", in which the couplet

"They hae' slain the Earl of Moray
And laid him on the green"

was mis-transcribed as

"They hae' slain the Earl of Moray
And Lady Mondegreen"

There is no linguistic justification whatsoever for "tentellones", regardless of how many years' usage it may have enjoyed in the luthier community.

The word is "DENTELLONES"
Author:  David LaPlante [ Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
Miguel, Murray,
Much more fascinating than those sticky little wooden blocks!!
Author:  guitarras_fdc [ Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
Hi all, regardless of what you call them, here is a brief description of how I make and glue them on.

1. size of my blocks are 6 deep, 7 wide and 15 tall (mm)

2. make a bunch of bars, rectangular section, any length, 6 x 20

3. rip those diagonally on the bandsaw to make two long pieces, triangular section, 6 X 16

4. on a wooden sled that holds the piece, place the rough side up, and plane that side clean, then shoot a plane on the edge of the triangle that is rough, until it is straight and the section is now 6 x 15

5. take about two thirds of what you made and with a plane that has the blade cutting more on the bottom, shoot the 6 mm side to create the angle you need on the domed part on the top.

6. glue a bunch of these long pieces together on the end grain by putting them together to form a block (I do about 10 pieces) and applying hide glue and then clamping lightly (a big spring clamp works for me), this is to hold the so they don't move around.

7. make a simple miter box guide and saw with a fine dozuki saw. You will be cutting 20 blocks on each saw cut. The duzuki leaves a fine surface that does not need sanding.

8. To glue them on the sides I like thick hide glue. It's kind of tricky to know how much to use to not get a bunch of squeeze out. I do not like to do clean up. Any squeeze out, stays. Hide glue has no dampening property and does not harm the sound. I take my sharp violin knife, prick the block, dab glue, put it where it has to go, put my finger on it, take the knife out, and that is it, I leave it there for the glue to dry, and do the next one. I do not go back and push it more. The glue will suck it into that corner good. It does not take more than one hour to do the whole top.

This way I avoid having to sand an angle on the bottom and it goes quite fast, I make a bunch of blocks on one day.
Author:  guitarras_fdc [ Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
on the Spanish name of the individual blocks that join the top and sides, I think most in Spain call them peones. Check this link out from guitar making teacher, Rafael Lopez, from Cadiz, Spain.

http://www.rafaellopezehijo.com/cronicas.htm
Author:  mqbernardo [ Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
nice site. thanks for the heads up.

cheers,
Miguel.
Author:  Shawn [ Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dentellones, tentellones... the little glue blocks: sizes?
Besides using a pointy tool as David showed to hold the blocks in place, if you use hot hide glue or fish glue (as we used in the Romanillos course) it only takes about 5 seconds or so for each block to hold and you can get the next ready.

Like Waddy I too use dentellones that are 8x10 and 10x10mm as the difference in size makes it look interesting but also hides and differences in gaps and glue that may have seeped when pushing the block into place. The size is less important that the idea that the top is not glue to the sides but rather held in place by the dentellones. When the rabbet is cut for the bindings it will result in the bindings mostly being glued to the dentellones and less so to the top with purfling strips covering the joint where the bindings meet the sides/dentellones.

I mention this because in the Bogdanovich book he states that he used to build with dentellones but he felt the sound was less focused whereas now he does a multi-ply sandwich of strips. The use of dentellones is inherently part of the Spanish tradition of building whereas many German and northern European builders will use kerfing that is continuous.
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