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Bracing.
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=31211		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  DannyV [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Bracing.
OK, it must be time for a good ol' bracing thread. I'm finding that after building 4 steel strings I'm not all that much wiser. I've been looking around a bit and trying to read as much as I can and like everything there are a lot of opinions, which is great. I'd be interested in hearing some opinions here. Firstly, with respect to scalloping. Some do and some don't and some do some of the time. It looked like Martin, which I suppose would be a bit of a bench mark for many, realised their older, pre 1940 something, had scalloped braces and someone thought it sounded better. Feel free to correct any historical inaccuracies. So I guess Martin does it now on their dreadnoughts. What about their other guitars? It appears on a dreadnought it's an acceptable choice to scallop....... unless your Bourgeois, then you only scallop the bass side. It seems some very respected builders don't always scallop.

So, what about you guys? I'd like to hear your brace treatment, including dimensions. My current is an L - 00 14 3/4" lower bout and I've done a 1/4" X 1/2" "X" and tapered it..... just because. I have yet to carve the tone bars and not sure what I will do other than take away as much wood as I dare.

I'm also not planning on letting in the lower end of the X into the linings, as I have done on all of my others. That just seems like a logical thing to do (in my little world), as I would think it would make for a more responsive guitar. So far all I've made have sounded good. I guess they could have sounded better, although I made an OM for my daughter that is opening up beautifully. They all put a big smile on my face. So what do you think about letting in the lower end of the X?

To make it simple. Time and place for scalloping and the same for letting in the bottom end of the X? Also, how much does your initial brace size change with the size of your guitar. Feel free to chime in with anything related to bracing. I"d like to hear any ones experiences.

Looking forward to hearing from y'all.

Cheers,
Danny

BTW - This by no means has to be limited to steel string. The first guitar I build was nylon string and when it comes time to build the next one I'll have a whole lot of questions.
Author:  Cocephus [ Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracing.
Well, Danny,
I understand your dilemna.
Maybe this is the part of learning that is left up to us as individuals to figure out.
I have read posts and researched so much that I fear that I`ll go cross-eyed.
The current guitar I`m in the process of binding started out with scalloped braces (redwood top & bracing). After I started carving and tapping, the scallops went out the window, and I went with tapered braces.
Now mind you, that I`m only a hobby builder with no professional opinion, and the wood I used on this guitar most probably is voiced to my limited and yet to be determined decision on just what makes that particular tone.
What I`ve done so far, is to keep the exploratory guitar as low cost as possible.
No, rosettes don`t count. :(
As far as inletting braces, IMHO, you can always cut back (at the lining) if correction is needed. Try to do the reverse.
See what I`m yacking about?
Maybe we don`t know for sure until we`ve tried it.
Coe Franklin
Author:  alan stassforth [ Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracing.
Hey Danny, looks like I'm the same boat as you.
This guitar building thing takes up a lot of my thinking time these days.
Nice distraction!
I think scalloping needs to be done by somebody that knows what they're doing,
otherwise you can make it sound worse.
i let the top of the x brace into the sides, and keep the bottom clear of the sides.
I do that because I feel the bridge is pushing down towards the neck end,
and pulling up at the tail.
Also, I think that the lower bout can vibrate more if those ends aren't attached to the sides.
Pure conjecture.
On my latest, I'm just about to brace the top, and after looking at my # 3 top,
I'll go with a thicker top on this one,
and maybe try some different lower bout bracing, like smaller finger brace style,
instead of 1 or 2 heavier braces.
Interesting if you have guitars you've built laying around so you can see/hear what that top does!
Author:  arie [ Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracing.
what i find a good tool is a gadget somogyi uses. it's a square framework with a bracing regime attached to springs which are attached to the frame. the frame is mounted upon legs and rests upon a table. one can experiment with coupling and mode activity (monopole, dipole, long dipole etc..) this way buy applying pressure in the bridge region and observing bracing movement (or lack of).

just a thought
Author:  James Orr [ Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracing.
Danny, have you seen any of the good voicing DVD's? I have John Mayes' and Kent Everett's. This is really a subject that's really best presented in person or through the DVD's, not via forum.

I think it's best simply to try different things with the first few guitars. Copy cats, so to speak. See what the different schemes sound like and which one really grabs you. My first was scalloped, my second was a parabolic copycat. The third will be a parabolic copycat with a layout more like what Somogyi describes in his books. I think you have to learn about shaping the sound from trial and experience.

My braces on the parabolic were all 1/4" wide, 1/2" tall at the X, and about 1/4" tall in the tone bars.
Author:  DannyV [ Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracing.
alan stassforth wrote:
I think scalloping needs to be done by somebody that knows what they're doing,
otherwise you can make it sound worse.

But you surely have to try scalloping. I scalloped my first 4 and was pleased with the results. The one I'm working on now will be tapered and lighter braced but with stiffer brace stock.

James, Yep, you're right. Voicing's a whole other thing. I'd like to think I could get a feel for it but I will try to track down some DVD's. Funny, I ran into a friend of mine who builds guitars this morning. He had sent me a photo of his latest braced top. I said to him,"I see you scalloped the braces. Any particular reason." "Ya, it looks cool." :lol:
Author:  Hupaand [ Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracing.
1/4" x braces on Oms, a bit thicker on dreads. 9/16ths high at the crossing. Everything else with the x I seem to change my mind on.
Author:  TimAllen [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bracing.
Some excellent points already made.

I would add that it's hard to find an answer your question just by thinking or asking for opinions. It's like asking: "How should I season my food?" Some will say to use cayenne, some to use black pepper, some to use dill. You can't decide what to use until you know how you want your food to taste.

My suggestion would be to listen to all the guitars you can, and note what kind of bracing they have (among other things). It seems to me that a key part of guitar making is deciding what kind of tone and pattern of response (including dynamics) you want to achieve, and then going for it.

In oversimplified and general terms, to my ear heavily braced guitars sound bright with reduced bass; tapered brace guitars have more bass and a kind of even tone; scalloped braces also give more bass but there's a different coloration to the tone that some people like. YMMV, all things are never equal, etc. etc.

The Mayes advanced bracing video discusses the characteristics that can be achieved tuning bracing differently, though not in great detail. It has other good info, and to me it was more than worth its modest price. For free, you can search for OLF posts by Alan Carruth, and read as many as you have time for. There's a lot of pertinent and thought-provoking information there.
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