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How critical are the fret locations?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=31130		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Mike Baker [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  How critical are the fret locations?
Hi guys. I'm on my 2nd scratch build, and this is the first time I've made my own fretboard. I really enjoyed the process, but there are some small mistakes on fret location. Some of the frets are about 1mm sharp, and a few are about 1mm flat from the positions they should be in. How much will this effect the overall intonation? IOW, will the guitar play sufficiently in tune or is this a mistake I can't ignore? If it matters, it's an electric, 24.562" scale, and will be strung with .009-.042 strings.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
Put it on the bone pile and start over.....just my opinion.
If you use it, you will NOT be happy with the results later, and will never pick up the instument and play it...
Put it down to experience.
What caused the error in the first place? Work on correcting that!!

Cheers,
Dave F.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
I agree. Don't ever try to center your cuts to a line, if you are eyeballing the alignment. Always align your blade to the line at one edge or the other, always addressing on the same side for each fret. Use a ruler or a miter box as a guide. A stainless steel ruler clamped to the board works fine.
Author:  Mike Baker [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
Thanks, guys. I was afraid of that. That was a lot of work. It looks so nice, too. Oh, well, at least it's not all wasted. The experience was worth the effort. I've got another piece of maple that I think is thick enough and wide enough to make a new fretboard. I'll give it another shot.
Thanks for the tip Waddy. You are indeed correct in what i did. I clamped a wooden block to the fretboard, but I tried to line up the saw with the slot line. This time around, I'll mark the slot locations on the edge of the board with a razor blade, and work off of that. Wish me luck, 'cause here I go again.
Author:  enalnitram [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
Mike Baker wrote:
'cause here I go again.

Yknow, I always kinda thought that Whitesnake song was about luthiery. Toiling in our shops. Working on our things.... :lol:
Author:  DennisK [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
+1 to Waddy. I clamp a 1" thick block to hold the saw against, to ensure the slot is vertical as well. As long as you clamp the block at the same distance from every mark on the fingerboard, the only possibly incorrect distance will be the nut to first fret. You can shorten that one if it's too long, and making it a bit short can be a plus, as then you can do a compensated nut :) (but make sure you account for it in the bridge positioning)

I make my marks by poking an x-acto knife into the board, so they are very small and thus have little wiggle room in positioning the guide block before it's visibly off. A sharp pencil would work as well. Dull pencil, not so much. I use a straight edge graduated to 64ths for measuring http://www.hartvilletool.com/product/14998. Graduations to 1/32" or 1mm ought to be accurate enough, but that's a good price for a multi-purpose tool if you don't have a long straight edge or high-accuracy ruler already.

Also, the way I mark is to make 3 sets of those x-acto pokes. Automatic double-check for every fret position, and just line up the edge of the block with the marks instead of fiddling with a square. Marking takes a while longer, but clamping the block is faster and I feel better than depending on one set of marks. I just clamped a square to act as a saw guide the first time, but kept getting the slots slightly off vertical, leaned in toward the square and scratched into it a bit... probably dulled my saw some too.
Author:  alan stassforth [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
Hey Mike, re-do it, imo.
The way I did fret slots, with no fancy tools, was,
Lay the fretboard out with a 100 of an inch ruler.
Those have really fine lines on them. duh
I did this with a needle, just a little centerpunch mark.
Take a break, let your eyes uncross, have a beer, whatever.
Then, when your eyes work again,
check your layout, some will be off by half a hundredth or so.
Make a new mark next to the old one.
Do this again.
Then, note the correct layout punch marks.
With the same needle, put it in the needle hole,
slide a square up to the pin, until it stops.
That way, you don't need your eyes anymore as much.
Cut with your backsaw until you have a nice little groove.
Then use a block of wood to cut square, and to keep the depth right.
Or, just use what you have, and don't play chords,
and play really fast.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
If it were not for our mistakes, we'd never learn and Stew-Mac would go out of business.
Author:  jason c [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
Hey Mike don't feel bad. I ended up having to make four fingerboards and two necks for my last one. They were all stupid mistakes that I hopefully won't ever make again. They were valuable lessons in paying attention though.
Jason
Author:  Michael.N. [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
0.2 - 0.3 mm accuracy is what I aim for. Occasionally I'm out by a touch more than that, which leaves me the option of leveling the frets and reshaping the particular fret that is off.
1 mm is far too much IMO.
Using magnification helps to split 0.5 mm's. You don't really need a line going across the fretboard, a nick with an X-acto will do. I simply place the X-acto in the nick, butt a square up against the knife and cut with the saw against the side of the square. The square acts as the guide. Every cut is off by half the kerf width. which eventually works out OK.
Author:  Colin North [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
Frets out old fretboard, fill with maple dust and glue, use the other side cutting the fret slot a little bit lower, and bind the fretboard - no-one will ever know. laughing6-hehe
Of course might be a bit thin after removing radius and re-doing other side........ [headinwall]
Good luck [:Y:]
Author:  Mike Baker [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
Thanks for the encouragement, guys. I knew as soon as I checked it that it was a no go. I'll get it right this time around. There's a lot of good info in this thread that I'll be taking advantage of. And I've also learned that no matter how carefull I am I need to doublecheck my marks before I cut the slots. That's where I made my mistake. If I'd done that before the saw ever hit wood we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Again, thanks for all the encouragement and advice.
Author:  sdsollod [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
I have used pre-cut fretboards in the past, but this time I have a ziricote fingerboard blank (from RC Tonewoods) that I want to use. I got a Stew-Mac slot cutter from a friend but haven't used it yet. Is it pretty fool-proof to use the miter box with the metal alignment guide? Are there any tips to ensure that the slots are cut in the right place?
Steve
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
sdsollod wrote:
I have used pre-cut fretboards in the past, but this time I have a ziricote fingerboard blank (from RC Tonewoods) that I want to use. I got a Stew-Mac slot cutter from a friend but haven't used it yet. Is it pretty fool-proof to use the miter box with the metal alignment guide? Are there any tips to ensure that the slots are cut in the right place?
Steve



Funny...I also just got a ziricote FB blank and I was able to pick up the moter box, fret saw and template, along with a whole mess of other stuff, from a guy getting out of the hobby for super cheap. I was wondering how many times I will need to practice before I take a saw to the ziricote.
Author:  wbergman [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
It's interesting that I once compared the relative fret postions of three classicals, and they were ridiculously different from each other. Two were high end. My ear is lousy, so I cannot really tell which is better. Some people can tell that playing in certain keys sounds better if the frets are fudged away from even temper. I wonder if the spacing was an attempt to accommodate that for the target market of the builders.
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
Sounds like your on a good path, Mike.

As a rule, the best craftsman is the one that is perceptive enough to see tiny issues. His craftsmanship is further defined by being dissatisfied until he has addressed all known issues. I mark it as character, not when one achieves perfection, but rather, when one strive to do his best. Good for you!!

Still...I'm not sure how much of an effect a 2mm total offset might affect intonation. I'd guess that being off by that amount would have you always chasing a proper tuning...and drive you nuts. But...how many of us have ever followed all the way through knowing we were off by that much?

I cut my fret slots with a cnc machine...so executing a given design will only be a problem if the design itself is flawed. I used this calculator and used the stretch-compensation feature. The intonnation is quite nice on this guitar...using .009"-.042" strings. So it's probably worth a look if you haven't already done so.

http://windworld.com/features/tools-res ... calculator
Author:  Corky Long [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
Colin North wrote:
Frets out old fretboard, fill with maple dust and glue, use the other side cutting the fret slot a little bit lower, and bind the fretboard - no-one will ever know. laughing6-hehe
Of course might be a bit thin after removing radius and re-doing other side........ [headinwall]
Good luck [:Y:]


I've used some ebony fretboards (yes, had a similar experience) as material for a laminated neck - I love that ebony stripe down the middle. Stuff's so expensive I don't throw ANYTHING out. If you laminate necks you can use maple, likewise.
Author:  jac68984 [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
sdsollod wrote:
I have used pre-cut fretboards in the past, but this time I have a ziricote fingerboard blank (from RC Tonewoods) that I want to use. I got a Stew-Mac slot cutter from a friend but haven't used it yet. Is it pretty fool-proof to use the miter box with the metal alignment guide? Are there any tips to ensure that the slots are cut in the right place?
Steve


If using a fret slot template and Stew-Mac's jig, my only suggestion is to make sure your fingerboard is properly secured to the template and remains so during the entire process. I use the Stew-Mac box, saw, and template. Works great, but one of these days I will get a thin blade for the table saw. On my last fretboard, on about the 11th fret, the fingerboard shifted on the double stick tape (some off brand stuff I found somewhere, use the double-sided tape from Stew-Mac if you can, it's great stuff but I had used up my supply) I had used to secure the board to the template. I didn't notice the 12th slot's spacing was off by a large amount until about 3/4 of the way into cutting the slot. gaah The fingerboard was EIR, which cut very nicely, and I was moving at a rapid pace. So . . . slow down, properly secure fingerboard to template, and ensure that nothing shifts while you are cutting.

To the original poster: don't feel too bad. These things can happen even when you thought you did everything to make the process idiot proof. After all, it's the idiot who generally develops the "idiot proof" process. :) Opportunities to learn.
Author:  Mike Baker [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
WaddyThomson wrote:
Don't ever try to center your cuts to a line, if you are eyeballing the alignment. Always align your blade to the line at one edge or the other, always addressing on the same side for each fret.

Success! The above advice was spot on, and worked like a charm.
For anyone new to this reading this thread, don't let your mistakes go. No matter how much time you've spent or how much wood you've used up, whenever possible FIX IT! Otherwise, to quote Dave, "you'll never be satisfied with it". All the effort is worth it.
Author:  Colin North [ Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
Corky Long wrote:
Colin North wrote:
Frets out old fretboard, fill with maple dust and glue, use the other side cutting the fret slot a little bit lower, and bind the fretboard - no-one will ever know. laughing6-hehe
Of course might be a bit thin after removing radius and re-doing other side........ [headinwall]
Good luck [:Y:]


I've used some ebony fretboards (yes, had a similar experience) as material for a laminated neck - I love that ebony stripe down the middle. Stuff's so expensive I don't throw ANYTHING out. If you laminate necks you can use maple, likewise.


I still have my first 2 EIR compound FBs I messed up the slots on - used first one to sand my FB caul to the compound radius I use, and both of them will make several bridge plates and rosette tiles.
This hobby makes me penny wise, pound foolish. laughing6-hehe
Author:  lactose [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
I have made mistakes on most of the fretboards I have made. Either the saw slipped, or I somehow cut it wrong. Since everything I do is fanned, I don't have a miter box. Plus I am always doing different odd scales. I just fill the slot with fretboard dust and CA and re-cut it. Amazingly in most cases the fret has hidden the mistake. In one case where I scratched the FB in the middle of two frets, my friend could not find it without me showing him. (it's in my avatar, the space where the lowest dot is, on the treble side). Of course I am just building these things for myself and friends. The bar would be higher should I ever sell something.
Author:  Goodin [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
Mike Baker wrote:
WaddyThomson wrote:
Don't ever try to center your cuts to a line, if you are eyeballing the alignment. Always align your blade to the line at one edge or the other, always addressing on the same side for each fret.

Success! The above advice was spot on, and worked like a charm.


I thought this was great advice as well. I marked out the fret locations on my first build last night, and used this advice when scoring the fret locations with an exacto knife. I used a 36" 1/64ths Woodcraft rule to to measure. I was surprised and amazed when I made the second markings that they were exactly dead on to the first markings. This is tedious but rewarding work. Ill be sawing the slots tonight. Lets hope they actually are in the right place!
Author:  Mike Baker [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How critical are the fret locations?
Goodin wrote:
Mike Baker wrote:
WaddyThomson wrote:
Don't ever try to center your cuts to a line, if you are eyeballing the alignment. Always align your blade to the line at one edge or the other, always addressing on the same side for each fret.

Success! The above advice was spot on, and worked like a charm.


I thought this was great advice as well. I marked out the fret locations on my first build last night, and used this advice when scoring the fret locations with an exacto knife. I used a 36" 1/64ths Woodcraft rule to to measure. I was surprised and amazed when I made the second markings that they were exactly dead on to the first markings. This is tedious but rewarding work. Ill be sawing the slots tonight. Lets hope they actually are in the right place!


If your measurements were accurate and you double checked them you should be fine(assuming whatever method you used to lay out the scale was accurate). If you have another guitar around with the same scale length you can also lay the fretboard beside it's fretboard and compare. The scale I'm using is the same as my first, and my favorite(bought that one pre slotted from Stew Mac), so it's easy for me to use it to compare.
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