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I've been toying with the idea of making a very short scale (22.875") jumbo guitar (16-16-1/2") as my left hand is getting pretty sore from an old injury while playing. Long A's are a particular problem and I am hoping a very short scale might help.
What can I expect from such a short scale? Rubbery strings unless I use heavier guage? Lower volume? Anyone have any experience with that short of a scale?

The baby Taylor is a 3/4 scale, 22 3/4" scale length instrument. Rubbery strings indeed, hard to get strings that get the intonation right, but kind of fun to put in Nashville tuning. I can't imagine being able to get a nice crisp sound out of that short a scale length, more of a cigar-box sound.
cheers

"The baby Taylor is a 3/4 scale, 22 3/4" scale length instrument. Rubbery strings indeed, hard to get strings that get the intonation right, but kind of fun to put in Nashville tuning. I can't imagine being able to get a nice crisp sound out of that short a scale length, more of a cigar-box sound."

Can't vouch for the scale length but I have played a Baby Taylor a few years ago, strung with 13's I think, and was reasonably well impressed with it.
Intonation - no harder to get right than a mandolin I would imagine, and you've done a few Haans as I recall.
I don't remember the strings being "rubbery" at all (may depend on individual style, I'm a relatively light-fingered picker) and it certainly didn't sound anything like a cigar box guitar.
I'll leave it to the more experienced to pitch in on the shorter scale length's effect on the sound/tone/overtones/volume thing.
Maybe try a "normal" scale length, various guage strings, tuned down a whole tone and capo'd at the 2nd fret kind of thing?
That would give one an idea of the sound.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Haans,

My third guitar was based on a Martin size 5 Terz, with a 22.something scale. The strings are indeed rubbery at standard tuning, with low volume and poor intonation. Medium strings might help, though I have yet to get off my duff and try them. Tuned up a minor 3rd — as it's designed for—it's a much nicer instrument for playing solo, nice and bright with good volume. I sure don't have the chops to transpose when playing with others though.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I've made two small (Stella) sized bodies using 22.875 scale, 12 fret neck joints and parabolic X bracing. One was sitka and sapele and the other is WRC and walnut. Strung with mediums I find they're only just a tiny bit rubbery and both sound pretty good. One OLFer said he thought the wrc and walnut model sounded an awful lot like a drednaught to him. I did make the bodies much deeper than a Stella (4.25" at the tail and 3.75" at the neck) so maybe that has something to do with it. I asked for advice before I went with such a short scale as well and if I remember correctly Howard Klepper posted that he uses that scale for his personal builds. Go for it. I'd love to hear a sound clip when you're done.

Bob

Thanks for the input folks!
I've been looking at 23, 23.25, and 23.5" also, and really haven't decided which I would like to use, but I have photographically reduced the 18" Prairie State to 16" and it's really cute and only 17" long. Looks like the box volume is roughly the same as my Grand Concert. Sounds like medium strings or heavier with very low action might be the way to go for me. It's almost impossible to play blues without that long A.
I've found a square neck resonator case that would probably fit with it too...

Haans, I've built quite a few travel guitars with a 22.5" scale and I think any tonal limitations were more a product of small body size rather than scale length. I would guess that your 17" body length would have at least as much impact on tone as the short scale.

The shortest I've gone on a full sized body is 24" (with lights) and I was happily surprised at how nice it sounded. I made it a 13 fret and the bridge stayed in the same spot. It didn't have the punch and crispness of a longer scale but it wasn't at all floppy or weak. Very smooth, sweet sound without as much peak to the notes. I could see people choosing it for tonal reasons alone, not just ergonomics.

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Haans, I just now got a thought.
Build your guitar as you said, so you can play more comfortably,
then, if you don't like the rubbery strings, or tone,
you could tune the guitar up a half step, or a whole step
to make the strings tighter.
Of course you'd have to transpose when playing with somebody else.
I have a short scale lap steel elec that I do that with.

Kent, the 17" long box almost requires a short scale, no more than 23.25" as I spent the afternoon figuring out. I think I will go with either 23 or the 22.875" on a 14 fret. That puts the bridge within an eighth of the original scaled down...
Heavier strings probably better, as I can get the action lower...
Alan, I don't like the idea of tuning up just for being not on pitch. I would rather use heavier strings...and I don't transpose playing blues. It would change the character of the tunes.

OK, here we go! A 16" Prairie State Mini-Jumbo...
After pondering the back and sides for days, almost going with white oak, I finally found a set of BRW that had too many issues for a GC or larger instrument, but is just right for the mini jumbo. Glued it up today and it's ready to flood with C/A tomorrow. Decided not to put in a center strip.
Scale length will be 22.875" and I'll try to build it for .054-.013's.



Here is the back compared to the 18"...

Great use for a BRW set with problems Haans, sure looks fine at that size!
And I like the no back strip decision also.

Joe

Thanks Joe! I might make a white oak later (like the tone better), but Maureen thought I ought to make this one Brazilian.

Her she is folks, the mini-bimbo.
Action is 3/64" treble and 1/16" bass. Cables are: .058, .048, .038, .028, .018, .015"...easy to remember. Plays like butter! I've just cranked out a few tunes as I'm still pretty leery of my thumb and elbow, but it feels good. Just the right amount of tension to the strings, still bendy enough on the trebles, FAT, strong, lyrical BRW/red spruce tone. I think I'm going to be very happy, and already the wife wants one...she's wanting a lot of guitars!
That 22.875" scale is just swell.
Sorry for the dusty peghead and back...pretty static-y after buffing.



MIni and big bimbo, big one has the 24.625"scale

Wow. Nicely done, Haans.

Very cool Haans!!

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

What a beauty Haans!
Sure glad to hear that it feels good on the hands and elbow.

The pair of them look great together!
Another classic.

Joe

Sweet Haans!

Chuck

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So cool. Congrats Haans!

THAT is a beautiful guitar Haans! Very nice.

I really like the round lines of that, Haans.

Another great job!
15 g upper string, and it plays like butter?
Wow.
I thought a 12 was kind of heavy.
I bet it's pretty loud, and big sounding.
I would love a sound-clip!

All I can say is I have a long way to go. Well done Haans.

I've been anxious to hear how this build went. Glad to know that I'm not crazy for thinking that a 22.875 scale guitar can sound pretty good.

Bob

Thanks guys!
BobK, this may be the single most important "discovery" that I have made for myself with you'se guys help! This thing REALLY does sound good. I'd put it up with my wife's BRW D-35 any day. It's loud, sweet, strong, FAT, all of it. I certainly intend to make more of these! Oak coming up and also a 12 string.
Alan, I balanced the scale length and action that I was trying for with string guages. The tension is about as stiff as a set of medium lights on a 25.4 scale. Were I to raise the action a bit, I would maybe go to .056-.013 or so and get a bit more rubbery for easier bending, but I like a nice stiff string (makes a fat tone), and I wanted the action as low as I could possibly get it. It took me 3 fret jobs to get it all right! A set of lights on this scale length at this action would not even play, and probably would sound bad anyway as I built the instrument for heavy strings.
The ease that this instrument plays with is like an electric with heavy strings. The short scale is beautiful, you can reach anything with ease, in my book, it's the way to go. I can't wait for others to try playing it, and any builders that may have been thinking along these lines, go for it, it works! My friend Bob will be coming over later in the week to record a few clips with it. Dave Hull is excited to try it too.
AND, the most important part is that I can play a bit again!
My thanks to all that contributed to help my thinking with this project.

I'll call you next time I'm in town Haans. I'd love to see it and play it.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

That really raises the bar for custom, unique, interesting, etc. Bravo! T