Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?

I've tried the pipettes with CA and they seem to clog up very quickly. How do you keep them from clogging?

Rod – thanks for the info. I’ll definitely be tracking down some micro pipettes for the job. It’s good to hear from another person who has had success with CA.

Don't know if you saw the tutorial I did on installing bindings - CA method but there is some other details from other folks on the pipettes and cleaning them. I do find that acetone works just fine.

As for tracking down the pipettes, take a look at Todd Stocks Cheaper Fine-Tipped Pipettes...Resizing Pipette Tips thread. Never know, if you send him a pm, he might just sell you a few as he seems to have cornered the market on pipettes

What I like about using CA is that as I go around and around using very small amounts of glue each pass (as Todd and others have suggested) The glue begins to seal from the "inside out" as it dries and you can eventually fill up every tiny gap. That makes a BIG difference at finishing time because it virtually eliminates drop fills around the binding and purfling - a very comon occurance as lacquer sinks into those tiny gaps too small to see. Be patient and go slowly. I usually make 5 or more passes around the entire body - top back and sides - and it takes a half hour or so to complete the gluing. I'll even go around again after cleaning it all up just to be sure I have all the gaps filled. If it doesn't wick in anymore, just suck it back into the pipette and move on down the line.

Good luck,
Chuck

Author:	CharlieT [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:	CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
So I think I would like to glue the bindings/puflings on my build #2 using CA glue, but there’s one thing that concerns me…I don’t want to have the glue get into the inside of the box and make a mess. Having searched the archived and read about how others do it, it sounds like it’s important to seal the channel with shellac (or something) to help prevent CA soak-through, but what about the kerfs in the lining that get exposed when routing the channels? Shellac won’t do much for those. Anyone have a good solution?

Author:	Bobby M [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
I also put a little shellac on the top and in the channels after you cut them.

Author:	CharlieT [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
Here's a picture of what I'm talking about. When the channels are routed, sometimes they can go through the sides and into the lining, exposing the kerfs. That opens up an easy pathway for the CA to flow through into the box. Attachment: endgraft.jpg

Author:	Bobby M [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
I've had it do that exact same thing. As I was told after being very frustrated with CA on my first attempt, CA wicks a long ways. Be very sparing in using it and it will go smoother. I got a lot less leaking or no leaking when I wasn't as generous. They are right, it doesn't take much. WIth that said, I still didn't like it and will be using fish glue for my next set of bindings.

Author:	Quine [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
Try using the medium or thick CA so it won't wick inside. Just apply it to the body and tape the binding around. I find it has plenty of open time if you work about 6" at a time. Just don't glue yourself to the body....not that I've ever done that

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Author:	woody b [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
What kind of binding are you using? Personally I don't like CA with wood binding. I don't see any way you'll not make a mess inside the box if you wick CA with those channels. Another reason I don't like reverse kerfing.

Author:	Pat Hawley [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
In support of what Todd just said, to me the most compelling reason for using CA for your bindings is the ability to get them all perfectly in place prior to gluing. To use medium or thick CA and go six inches at a time kind of misses the point - might as well use a different glue and continue to hope for the best. The other suggestion I have - for your next guitar consider using bindings that are slightly thinner than your sides. That way when you cut the ledge for the bindings there is no reason to go deep enough to cut into your linings. Pat

Author:	CharlieT [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
Bobby – thanks for the replies. Yes, I’m often shocked by how far CA will wick in joints and open grain. Yikes! Woody – I’ll be using wood binding. Probably maple. I guess reverse kerfing would exaserbate the problem…I hadn’t considered that. Todd – thanks for the info on the different CA varieties. I’m going to experiment with blending them as you suggested. And I love the idea of leaving the binding a little proud in both dimensions to hold the tape off the sides. Great idea! Pat – I agree completely…the only reason in my mind to even mess with CA at all is to be able to tape everything up first, get everything perfect, and only then glue it up. After the mess I made with my first, that appeals to me very much. Using thinner binding is also a great idea. I’ve also considered using solid bindings to accomplish the same thing without limiting the thisckness of my bindings/purflings. Filippo – glad to hear you’ve not had a problem…that’s encouraging. I’ll take your advice and pay close attention to how the glue walks the joints to get a feel for how heavily (lightly!) to apply it. And I’ll be sure I apply to each of the joints as well…another thing I had not considered. When you mentioned PVA and fish glue as options, do you mean thinning them and wicking them into the joints in the same manner as CA? Thanks everyone for the replies and ideas! Much appreciated. Charlie

Author:	Rod True [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
Charlie, you've got great advise here. The only thing I would add is to use a micro tip pipette to apply the CA, this will do two thing. First it will allow you to control how much glue is being applied and the other is that you won't use as much glue as if you were just using it from the bottle with a standard tip. You really don't need much at all. I've done 9 guitars with CA for wood bindings and none of them have any mess' inside. Actually, there is no wicking into the inside of the body in anyway.

Author:	banjopicks [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
I've tried the pipettes with CA and they seem to clog up very quickly. How do you keep them from clogging?

Author:	woody b [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
I wick CA with plastic binding, but use wood glue (usually fish glue) with wood binding. When using CA I spray the channel with accelerator, then wait 10 minutes of so before starting with the binding. I don't know if this does anything to help with it running everywhere. When using wood binding, after making sure everything fits, I put glue in the channel, then tape the binding/purfling every couple inches. After that I've got a board with a bunch of hooks screwed in it. I wrap rubber bands around to pull the binding in place. Between the rubber bands, and the skrinkage of the glue it's easy to get tight binding and purfling. Some people didn't like me posting 1024X768 pictures. Here's a link to my "binding board". http://brackettinstruments.com/gluing%20binding.jpg

Author:	CharlieT [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
Rod – thanks for the info. I’ll definitely be tracking down some micro pipettes for the job. It’s good to hear from another person who has had success with CA. Hutch – sorry I can’t answer your question. Hopefully someone with pipette experience will chime in. Woody – I had not thought of using CA with plastic bindings. Does it adhere well to all of the popular plastic bindings? That’s a pretty cool binding board, and seems like it would be pretty easy to construct. I’ll have to make one.

Author:	Rod True [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
banjopicks wrote: I've tried the pipettes with CA and they seem to clog up very quickly. How do you keep them from clogging? I don't have a problem with this unless I leave the CA in the pipette for several hours. Once I'm done with the pipette, I just rinse it out with acetone. No issues after that.

Author:	Darrel Friesen [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
If they do clog, just nip an 1/8" or so off the end, good as new.

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Author:	Rod True [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
CharlieT wrote: Rod – thanks for the info. I’ll definitely be tracking down some micro pipettes for the job. It’s good to hear from another person who has had success with CA. Don't know if you saw the tutorial I did on installing bindings - CA method but there is some other details from other folks on the pipettes and cleaning them. I do find that acetone works just fine. As for tracking down the pipettes, take a look at Todd Stocks Cheaper Fine-Tipped Pipettes...Resizing Pipette Tips thread. Never know, if you send him a pm, he might just sell you a few as he seems to have cornered the market on pipettes

Author:	ChuckG [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
What I like about using CA is that as I go around and around using very small amounts of glue each pass (as Todd and others have suggested) The glue begins to seal from the "inside out" as it dries and you can eventually fill up every tiny gap. That makes a BIG difference at finishing time because it virtually eliminates drop fills around the binding and purfling - a very comon occurance as lacquer sinks into those tiny gaps too small to see. Be patient and go slowly. I usually make 5 or more passes around the entire body - top back and sides - and it takes a half hour or so to complete the gluing. I'll even go around again after cleaning it all up just to be sure I have all the gaps filled. If it doesn't wick in anymore, just suck it back into the pipette and move on down the line. Good luck, Chuck

Author:	CharlieT [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
Rod True wrote: Don't know if you saw the tutorial I did on installing bindings - CA method but there is some other details from other folks on the pipettes and cleaning them. I do find that acetone works just fine. As for tracking down the pipettes, take a look at Todd Stocks Cheaper Fine-Tipped Pipettes...Resizing Pipette Tips thread. Never know, if you send him a pm, he might just sell you a few as he seems to have cornered the market on pipettes Rod - I had seen the thread on pipettes, but not your tutorial. VERY helpful tutorial!! Thanks for pointing it out.

Author:	CharlieT [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
ChuckG wrote: What I like about using CA is that as I go around and around using very small amounts of glue each pass (as Todd and others have suggested) The glue begins to seal from the "inside out" as it dries and you can eventually fill up every tiny gap. That makes a BIG difference at finishing time because it virtually eliminates drop fills around the binding and purfling - a very comon occurance as lacquer sinks into those tiny gaps too small to see. Be patient and go slowly. I usually make 5 or more passes around the entire body - top back and sides - and it takes a half hour or so to complete the gluing. I'll even go around again after cleaning it all up just to be sure I have all the gaps filled. If it doesn't wick in anymore, just suck it back into the pipette and move on down the line. Good luck, Chuck I'm really beginning to see the wisdom in going very slowly. Thanks for the tips Chuck!

Author:	Chris Paulick [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CA, Bindings and Kerfed Lining…?
I also put some blue painters tape under the areas where you cut through and even on top and mark the open kerf cut areas on the tape. Then when I get near them I make sure to go slow and apply the CA in between the marks and just a tad and give it time to set. You can even hold the guitar to let gravity help some. I haven't tried it but you might give a try at dusting the questionable areas with baking soda before appling the binding. The baking soda may act as an accelerator and cause the ca to setup and not giving it a chance to run. I know of a few who use baking soda for accelerator. I use the tips also with CA.