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noob question #1 - tools
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=30331		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  muddlermike [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  noob question #1 - tools
so, I've been searching this site for all my questions over the weekend and have been getting most of them answered. I finally got my books that I ordered and have been skimming them over the last day. But one thing I've noticed is that everyone's "needed" tools list varies. I have a decent compliment of woodworking tools - both powered and hand - but with Christmas around the corner, I was wondering if there are some priorities I should mention for the last minute shopper :)

I realize this list is potentially extensive, but what do you guys suggest are the main lutherie tools I need to be sure to have before I start my build?
Author:  Peter J [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
Not knowing what tools you have it is difficult to list what else you might need. A simple search here for "tools & minimum" yields a number of discussion threads with which to start.

Here is a good one to begin with:
viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=27192&p=365443&hilit=tools+%26+minimum#p365443

Good luck and remember, there are only 7 shopping days left before Christmas... :D
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
I bought as I needed over the 1st couple builds, my advice is buy quality, most of my power tools were bought used and I have had good luck, there is at least a 50% savings and with careful buying I have found most of then hardly used. For hand tools I have had good luck with whatever I bought at Woodcraft and Lee Valley though I have found some real nice old planes that were in real great shape. Tools and wood are the most addictive part of this obsession.

By the way welcome to the forum
Fred
Author:  Darrin D Oilar [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
Highest on my priority list would be
1: Good band saw and a some good blades
2: drum sander
3: Good chisels and a good sharpening method/technique
4: Humidity control/monitoring
5: Laminate trimmer and binding cutter set up
6: a decent scraper and spoke shave
7: Rasp



Darrin
Author:  muddlermike [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
ok, sorry. I guess I should give you guys an idea of what I mean by a "decent complement of tools" :) I own:

power:
10 inch table saw
14 inch band saw with riser
6 inch jointer
13 inch planer
12 inch drill press
osccilating belt/spindle sander
cordless drills
two routers
a rotozip and dremmels with a crapload of attachments including plunge bases and such
various RO sanders
nailers, saws and such

hand:
a couple dozen planes including many smoothers, jacks, a jointer, 1/2 dozen blocks, and shoulder/bullnose planes
spokeshaves
card scrapers
cabinet scraper
chisels
gent saw
tenon saw
coping saw
flush cut saw
basic files, needle files
combo squares
bevel gauges
micronometers
calipers
marking gauges

so, I guess I'm asking what specific lutherie tools should I be looking for? like, do I need a full set of nut files or fret files? what kind of rules and straight edges should I be looking for? that kind of thing...
Author:  James Orr [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
You definitely need a set of nut files. Setup tools are the ones I overlooked initially.

- A precision straightedge: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_su ... edges.html

- Essential fretting kit: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_su ... g_Kit.html

- Sometimes I use a radius block with 400 grit paper for fret leveling: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_su ... locks.html

- Nut making kit: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Nuts,_saddl ... l_Kit.html

- Nut seating file: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Nuts,_saddl ... _File.html

- Nut slotting gauge (a luxury item):http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Nuts,_saddles/Special_tools_for:_Nuts_and_saddles/Nut_Slotting_Gauge.html

- String action gauge (my most used tool): http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Strai ... xsr=131951
Author:  AlBDarned [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
All you really need is one of these:
Author:  Bailey [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
depends on your new build. Even though I was a woodworker for 40 years....I bought a LMI serviced kit for my first build. That gave me a good idea of basic needs and also let me experience the task without the addition on more tools. I was able to build the kit with minimal tool expense. Since then...I've been hooked and upgraded my shop for luthier prjects and still choose to use some old fashion hand work...but a small performax thickness sander is my prized possession at the moment....until I purchase my next tool of need.

Kent
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
Drum sander is my favorite, then band saw.
Author:  wolfsearcher [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
you should mention how much money your willing to spend wow7-eyes initally
how much your time is worth to you then
figure out what jigs youll be making instead of buying
get stu macs catalogue and lmi
Author:  muddlermike [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
AlBDarned wrote:
All you really need is one of these:


whooooaaaa... that's cooooool!!!!! LMAO

thanks everyone for your advice. and, I should clarify more:

so, I was thinking about starting with one of the LMI kits, mainly because I don't have a drum/thickness sander yet (on the list) and I don't have enough confidence in my abilities to get consistant with planes at these kind of thicknesses. It would also be helpful to see and hold the parts premade so I will know how to make them properly on my second build. But, I still want to design, shape the neck, and bend the sides, etc. I figure I will be building the forms, bending iron, and probably even a gobar deck ... which, of course, I'll be asking plenty of questions about as well.

I was looking at all the stewmac kits and they are a bit pricy - it would really eat up my wood budget for the kit to get started. I've looked at each individual tool in the stewmac kits and it seems like in some cases I can find them cheaper on other sites. For example, I found a 12oz deadblow with a brass head from Grizzly for about 1/3 the cost of stewmac's fret hammer. looks like the same thing except the grizz is an eye catching, hot orange - just in case I'm fretting during deer season, I'm guessing. ;) Although the kits look pretty complete, I'm just wondering if I need a full set of fret files or the like, or if I would be ok with just buying one or two main sizes. That's kind of what I was getting at.

Lutherie is something that has interested me for a couple of decades, and I'm just getting around to being able to afford the tools and have the space to start. I'm in it for the long haul, and am willing to buy quality, but I'm looking at over $1000 in just tools/tool kits to get started if I go with all of the stuff from Stewmac. And, with all the speciality tools out there, I was mainly curious as to what is necessary and what is just fluff for the average steel string or classical acoustic build.

thanks so much for the responses. I really appreciate all of your help.
Author:  NWflyonly [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
AlBDarned wrote:
All you really need is one of these:

Hey, I want one of those!
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
James Orr wrote:
You definitely need a set of nut files. Setup tools are the ones I overlooked initially.

- A precision straightedge: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_su ... edges.html

- Essential fretting kit: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_su ... g_Kit.html

- Sometimes I use a radius block with 400 grit paper for fret leveling: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_su ... locks.html

- Nut making kit: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Nuts,_saddl ... l_Kit.html

- Nut seating file: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Nuts,_saddl ... _File.html

- Nut slotting gauge (a luxury item):http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Nuts,_saddles/Special_tools_for:_Nuts_and_saddles/Nut_Slotting_Gauge.html

- String action gauge (my most used tool): http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Strai ... xsr=131951


Much of this is helpful, and almost none of it is necessary.

Build a guitar, and when you don't have the right tool, you will notice it. Most of what you need can be bought at a good hardware store, or online from various tool sources.
Author:  Kim [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
Get yourself a couple of good quality 'machinist/engineers' squares, a 3" and a 6" should be fine...don't skimp here on your hardware variety tool, just pay what is needed for a Starrett or Brown & Sharpe or whatever and be done with it because they will pay you back many times over. Same deal with a 600mm straightedge, no need to go right over the top, because the price of some of these tools really are, but still be prepared to cringe a little when you pay up. Do not fool yourself into buying anything but a proper precision tool. I am not sure what the Stewmac variety is like but they are generally a very good and reliable company to deal with.

I live in Australia so shipping is an issue for me, I settled on a locally available 1000mm, beveled edge, metric graduated, precision ground, hardened steel Boac straightedge. This tool is made in Germany, I paid around $100 years ago and I am very happy with it. 1000mm may seem over-kill, but I also have a number of shop made aluminum edges in variouse lengths which I use for most things because they are lighter and therefore easier to handle. But all go back to the Boac now and then to verify their accuracy.

The Boac edge and the engineers squares remains the datum point for much of what happens in my shop. These tools are used to set up, check, and verify everything from machines and other hand tools, to the squareness of stock to be worked. Ultimately they are responsible for the accuracy of most everything I do, and in a craft which can often lead to the production of jigs to allow accurate repetition, these tools are quite priceless in allowing one to realise that outcome.

Even if you walk away from lutherie, chances are you will still use these tools often and remain grateful you paid what ever you did every single time you hang them back up because you 'know' you can rely upon them...precision tools do not lie, they answer many more questions than they will ever ask. 8-)

Cheers

Kim
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
I built my first with the following: old 1/2 chisel and old No. 4 size wooden plane taken from an old neighbor. I bought new a small Japanese dozuki and a LMI guide for drilling the tuner holes. No scraper, I used penknife blades to scrape with. Used a hunting knife for all sort of tasks. Some worn out files and a rasp dad had lying around. Regular office compass and straight edge (which I made sure it is not off as many are). Lots of sandpaper. A knife file borrowed from another neighbour to do the nut slots. Improvized a workboard (no outside mold) and a gobar deck between shelves of a bookcase.
I bought a preslotted FB as it would have been too slow to do without any jig. One of the hard parts was to joint the plates witht hat short plane. Took me a whole day each. That guitar plays well, sounds pretty good for a first, and all joinery is very good. No gaps, no thick glue lines. It still looks like s overall with all the little marks in the wood, the asymetry and the inherent lack of refinement of an early attempt, but it nowhere accuses any lack of fancy tools, just my lack of experience.

My current list is still pretty much basic and without much jigs:

Chisels: 2 4.5 6.25 10 12 15 18mm I want a 1.5 and a 3, still.
Planes: low angle block plane with two different angle blades. Low angle LV Jack with 2 different angle blades. Japanese smoother. That old wooder I still use sometimes.
I want a LV LA smoother as the Jack is sometimes too large for some stuff.
Saw: 2 LMI fret saws, large Ryoba, large Dozuki, small Dozuki, tiny special saw with no set for extra fine cuts.
Files/rasps: 2mm edge file important for the bridge slot. 3.5mm with teeth just on the edge, I use this a whole lot. A few half round medium cut files for metal, leaves a fine surface on wood. A small rasp I use for working the headstock. Fret recrowning file. I really need a couple larger rasps still.
Jigs: headstock drill guide, binding gramil (I need a second) and circle cutter. Simple jig with rope and wedges for jointing plates. LMI FB manual slotting jig. Handdrill stand which makes for a silly drillpress, still nice for drilling bridge or headstock holes without a jig.
Larger items: dehumidifier (really important, perhaps it should be the top of the list), workboard, mold, gobardeck.
Misc: glue pot and all sort of brushes jars rags :D

That's pretty much it. I could easily pack all I use in a large suitcase save for the solera and mold. Oh and the vice, forgot this one. Misc vice for metal.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
Square! Yes! I didn't have one for my first and it was a real pain using a plastic school triangle. I now use a large metal Stanley square, cheap and not too fancy but it is square. I alsp forgot the caliper, the thickness gauge and the Hacklinger caliper in my current tray.
Author:  Tom West [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
muddlermike: After looking at your list of tools I think Klepper and Stock have given you the best advise. Get at it and build a guitar. There is a tool out there for everything but just plain old hard work and initative.You have most of what you need already. Again,get at it.
Tom
Author:  muddlermike [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
thanks for all the advice.

[headinwall] I'll stop worrying about it and just buy as I need...
Author:  Ian Cunningham [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
For hand tool addict like me who considers a plunge router a "necessary evil" I gotta say your tools list is already too extensive, unless of course you do other woodworking. You really ought to get a fretting saw, but that's all I can see needing, and that's only if you want to do a fretboard yourself the first time round. Later you'll want a fret slotting mitre box. You may as well get the LMI one, that thing's a beast. It's very important though to buy tools as you need them, because everyone does things differently. Advice on WHICH tool to buy for a specific purpose makes a lot of sense however. Just remember a lot of normal tools can be used for luthiery related jobs, even if there is another tool that does the same job that's devoted entirely to luthiery. In many cases the normal tool will be more versatile anyway. Get the best precision tools you can afford. I can't imagine what could be more frustrating then a measuring device that you directly rely on giving you incorrect results and not knowing later what you did wrong. Best to avoid that from the start.
Author:  Quine [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
Howard said it exactly right!!

There's a dozen ways to do each operation in guitar building....and they're all wrong laughing6-hehe
Just plan each step as you think best and get tools as you need them. Then make a tool list for next Christmas
Author:  Haans [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
A 6 X 89" edge sander.
Author:  klooker [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: noob question #1 - tools
Nut files & bridge pin reamer (assuming you're building an acoustic).

Kevin Looker
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