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gaps in binding
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Author:  coach [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  gaps in binding
Hey guys,

I'm a little frustrated with my binding. My entire first build has gone extremely well so far, except for this binding! I tried using a handheld binding cutter, designed to screw onto a dremel, sold my StewMac. By the way, what a piece of garbage. Halfway through the process, the wheel came off while I was cutting. I don't recommend this tool.

Anyway, after glueing, I have alot of gaps, putting it mildly. :) I tried making a sawdust filling, and using gel superglue to fill. That worked okay, but you can just see that I filled a gap. However, some of the super glue, after using a card to level it, has darkened the wood, and left some white staining, on the wood. I'm afraid to sand anymore, I'm starting to develop some uneven spots in the sides, and actually came close to removing too much binding on the back.

Will these dark spots blend in with the epoxy filler I plan on using during my finish stage? Any advice is greatly appreciated.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: gaps in binding
Gap filling can only bring you so far… It works reasonably well for dark woods and tiny gaps. BTW if you use CA to bridge small gaps, do not use the accelerator before letting it cure a minute or so, otherwise it turns white. A bit of CA debonder will solve that though.
From your description, what I would do is rout off the binding/purfling, devise a binding/purfling scheme that will cover the mistakes entirely and redo it. Re-level your sides before routing. I suspect this happened to all of us, at one point or another.
This time do it with a good binding jig, like the Ribecke model John Hall sells if you don't want to build it yourself.
The StewMac attachment looks like it would work for ukes or maybe mandolins, for a guitar I think it's a joke.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: gaps in binding
Yup, a redo sounds in order. Do yourself a favor and build a binding cutting jig. A lot of us have been able to build one for about 20 bucks. The router can seem expensive but it's totally worth it...
Author:  letseatpaste [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: gaps in binding
Are your gaps due to an uneven channel, or because the binding doesn't fit perfectly (or both)? You might have two separate issues to work on.

If your bindings don't fit without applying a lot of force to hold in place, it might be time to look into pipe bending to touch up for a better fit. I've struggled with binding gaps in the past, and I think I've narrowed it down to not having a perfect fit with the bindings. My next binding job will be my first with bindings that I've touched up on the pipe, and I can already tell it will be much easier. It doesn't take much pressure to hold the binding and purfling perfectly in the channel, so I know my tape will hold everything in place. I used to struggle to hold things in place and then break pieces of tape trying to hold it all tight, and I usually got a gap.

If you can find someone local to show you the ropes on pipe bending, that'll help a lot. I broke lots of pieces on my first attempts. I was lucky to have a visit from the guy who bends sides for Lowden and he gave me a quick demo and after that my pipe bending skills quadrupled. Now I look for an excuse to get out the pipe bender.
Author:  coach [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: gaps in binding
Laurent Brondel wrote:
Gap filling can only bring you so far… It works reasonably well for dark woods and tiny gaps. BTW if you use CA to bridge small gaps, do not use the accelerator before letting it cure a minute or so, otherwise it turns white. A bit of CA debonder will solve that though.
From your description, what I would do is rout off the binding/purfling, devise a binding/purfling scheme that will cover the mistakes entirely and redo it. Re-level your sides before routing. I suspect this happened to all of us, at one point or another.
This time do it with a good binding jig, like the Ribecke model John Hall sells if you don't want to build it yourself.
The StewMac attachment looks like it would work for ukes or maybe mandolins, for a guitar I think it's a joke.


Thanks so much for your advice. I didn't even think about just cutting it out and redoing it. I plan on building a jig, the Fleishman model, for my next build. I think though, that for this one, I'm going to just live with the mistake. I have a baby on the way, this is my first build, and I just don't have the time or money to build the jig, and redo it. It's my first one, so I've been keeping a detailed journal, and I can't even tell you just how educating this whole experience has been. I understand now how it can really become an addicting hobby. I almost enjoy building as much as playing!

By the way, your guitars are beautiful. My Grampy and Nanny are from Maine, Brewer ME. I love your state, and it's interesting that there are so many good woodworkers up there. Must be that it's sooo cold you guys have to keep busy inside! :)

Thanks again,

Sean
Author:  alan stassforth [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: gaps in binding
Sean, I too am struggling with wood bindings.
My third try with wood looks awful.
I've been using a Sloan hand cutter, and it ain't wprking out.
Definitely need a jig.
Just have to keep those gitars!
Author:  Corky Long [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: gaps in binding
Sean -

You've gotten some great advice from Laurent and letseatpaste - I've struggled with both of these issues.

I hear you on just wanting to get it done, especially with a baby on the way - that may be the only practical solution. On the other hand, I find cutting and gluing bindings to be one of those things that are SOOOO visible when they aren't right, and very hard to execute - nigh impossible without the right tools - proper jig is indispensable. You might want to get some more practice on this one, before you get to your next guitar. It's pay me now, of pay me later, I'm afraid.

It's funny how the parts of building a guitar that everyone remarks on ("oooh - how'd you do that?"), and assumes are tough (bending the sides) can be very simple, and the elements that look simple are devilishly tough; cutting uniform binding channels, basic setup, fitting a neck without gaps, etc., etc.....
Author:  coach [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: gaps in binding
Thanks everyone for your advice. I think I'm going to have to stick with what I have now, and just try to clean it up with some acetone before epoxy filling. I'm looking forward to building the binding jig later for my next build. I found the directions for building one at this site for everyone's info:

http://www.dewguitars.com/BindingJig/Binding%20Jig.htm

I actually got this link from Kathy Matsushita's website. Anyway, if I can build this accurately, I think the next one will go much better.

I look forward to the day when I can have some experience to give advice to some other newbies. :)

Take care,

Sean
Author:  coach [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: gaps in binding
Laurent Brondel wrote:
Gap filling can only bring you so far… It works reasonably well for dark woods and tiny gaps. BTW if you use CA to bridge small gaps, do not use the accelerator before letting it cure a minute or so, otherwise it turns white. A bit of CA debonder will solve that though.
From your description, what I would do is rout off the binding/purfling, devise a binding/purfling scheme that will cover the mistakes entirely and redo it. Re-level your sides before routing. I suspect this happened to all of us, at one point or another.
This time do it with a good binding jig, like the Ribecke model John Hall sells if you don't want to build it yourself.
The StewMac attachment looks like it would work for ukes or maybe mandolins, for a guitar I think it's a joke.


Hey Laurent one more question:

I noticed you use oil finish on your guitars. What do you use to pore fill and seal? I'm really interested in that finish process. Like yourself, I really like everything about the wood of a guitar, and like how the oil finish shows that off so well.

THanks,

Sean
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: gaps in binding
Laurent, debonder will clean that white blush up? Really?!
Why that just might be the tip of the month (at least for me).
Thanks mate.

Steve
Author:  bluescreek [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: gaps in binding
One point about wood binding that was missed . Often , especially on the backs you are trying to make a very compound bend. This can cause a gyration effect in the wood . One thing to help is to break the inside corner of the binding . This helps to allow the binding to seat better into the channel .
When you have a male female mating that inside corner often is not sharp . As you set the binding into the channel , the mismatch can cause gaping . I like to use wood binding myself and seldom use thicker than .065. the heavier you make the wood binding the more the risk of gaping .
Author:  coach [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: gaps in binding
bluescreek wrote:
One point about wood binding that was missed . Often , especially on the backs you are trying to make a very compound bend. This can cause a gyration effect in the wood . One thing to help is to break the inside corner of the binding . This helps to allow the binding to seat better into the channel .
When you have a male female mating that inside corner often is not sharp . As you set the binding into the channel , the mismatch can cause gaping . I like to use wood binding myself and seldom use thicker than .065. the heavier you make the wood binding the more the risk of gaping .


Thank you for that tip. I noticed your videos on youtube. I'll watch those closely when I try this again.
Author:  Robbie_McD [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: gaps in binding
Hi Sean,

I just built one of these - piece of cake. I have better pix if you like. I got the hardware from Lee Valley:
1 x 8" Lazy Susan
1 x 22" HD Drawer Guide
12 x Jig Knobs
6 x 1/4" t-Bolts (Lower carridge bracket)
6 x 1/4" Stove Bolts (Upper carridge bracket)
Metal insert for lower carridge bracket: 3 feet

Dimensions:
Lower base: 10" x 10" x 8" High
Upper arm: Internal: 25" x 3" OD, External 22" long, (ID made to measure based on Drawer Glide thickness)
Carridge: make it 1" larger than your guitar outline
L-brackets: 2 1/4 x 4"
Height adjusters: Cut with a 1 1/2" hole saw, with cork glued on
Parallelogram: 2 x 3" x 6" sides, 2 x 3" x 6" arms (I used Oak), and 1/4" ready rod for the axle.
Note I am just fabricating the trimmer base, which will attach to the bottom of the front parallelogram. I am using 3/4" UHMW plastic, and will route the base to form a 1/4" ring where the cutter pokes through - will post pics when done



Image
Image
Author:  NWflyonly [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: gaps in binding
[quote="Robbie_McD"]Hi Sean,

I just built one of these - piece of cake. I have better pix if you like. I got the hardware from Lee Valley:
1 x 8" Lazy Susan
1 x 22" HD Drawer Guide
12 x Jig Knobs
6 x 1/4" t-Bolts (Lower carridge bracket)
6 x 1/4" Stove Bolts (Upper carridge bracket)
Metal insert for lower carridge bracket: 3 feet

Dimensions:
Lower base: 10" x 10" x 8" High
Upper arm: Internal: 25" x 3" OD, External 22" long, (ID made to measure based on Drawer Glide thickness)
Carridge: make it 1" larger than your guitar outline
L-brackets: 2 1/4 x 4"
Height adjusters: Cut with a 1 1/2" hole saw, with cork glued on
Parallelogram: 2 x 3" x 6" sides, 2 x 3" x 6" arms (I used Oak), and 1/4" ready rod for the axle.
Note I am just fabricating the trimmer base, which will attach to the bottom of the front parallelogram. I am using 3/4" UHMW plastic, and will route the base to form a 1/4" ring where the cutter pokes through - will post pics when done


Looks great do you have any photos of the trimmer mounted to the unit? I'm about to build one and I'm curious how you addressed this issue.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: gaps in binding
I use the stew mac dremel tool and have no issues with it. I did notice that you really need to tighten the adjustment screw or it will wonder a bit on you.

Always take small cuts.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: gaps in binding
coach wrote:
I noticed you use oil finish on your guitars. What do you use to pore fill and seal? I'm really interested in that finish process. Like yourself, I really like everything about the wood of a guitar, and like how the oil finish shows that off so well.
I use an oil varnish finish, very different from an oil finish. Namely, a short or medium oil varnish. These days I seal with Waterlox Original, and porefill with either Pore-O-Pac that I tint, or epoxy, depending on the expected result.
Sean, if I have an unsolicited piece of advice to give you: be patient and re-do your binding. Those mistakes are going to look you in the face for as long as the guitar will be in front of you, and you'll regret forever not having done the job right when you could.
Steve Kinnaird wrote:
Laurent, debonder will clean that white blush up? Really?!
Yes Steve, it will get rid of the blush. I used that trick more than once when gluing binding and purflings with CA. I am staying away as much as I can from CA these days, though, and came back to using Titebond for bindings, works great and I get better and faster results than with CA.
Author:  John Bushouse [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: gaps in binding
At Roberto-Venn we use a similar method. The jig is clamped to a big ol' piece of MDF which acts as the table that the body jig sits on. We use 6 adjustment points, though: neck block, tail block, both sides upper bout, both sides lower bout. You'll see two jigs in the pictures; one for binding, one for purfling.

Image

Image

Image
Author:  coach [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: gaps in binding
John Bushouse wrote:
At Roberto-Venn we use a similar method. The jig is clamped to a big ol' piece of MDF which acts as the table that the body jig sits on. We use 6 adjustment points, though: neck block, tail block, both sides upper bout, both sides lower bout. You'll see two jigs in the pictures; one for binding, one for purfling.

Image

Image

Image



So the body jig slides freely on the mdf that the cutter jig is clamped to? That seems more simple than the parallelogram design. You get great results?
Author:  Gregg C [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: gaps in binding
Hey Sean,
I just had a discission with the guys on binding machines,
See this link,
viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=29890
I determined some time ago I wanted to equip myself with the best, most
convient tooling I could find inorder to avoid lengthly repars and frustration,
Your thread is my point in fact.
Last week I ordered a Fleishman binding machine from john, I ordered the router
from Amamzon.com
http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-D26670-Lam ... 560&sr=8-1
With this setup I believe I have correct tooling for my future binding projects.
This thing cost a few bucke, however its a one time purchase and you are done.

Gregg
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