Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.

well thanks for all the help, suggestions, insights and comments, i will have to read up on deflection testing and all that jazz like i said i am more or less a complete novice when it comes to tone woods, so i have a lot to learn.

i am curious about the grain runout issue, i wasnt real familiar with that term so i was doing some reading which seemed to suggest that unless the runout quite extreme say like 20 or 30 degrees, then it was not really a structural hazard, but more of an aesthetic issue, is that true? also these boards are thick enough that i would think there is a good chance i could split them and produce some boards without much runout, assuming that in the pile i find some good peices. is there any good way to test that sort of thing without spliting the wood?

Author:	peters instruments [ Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:	i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
ok so here is the deal, i was out working in my shop today and my crazy uncle whom everyone usually tries to avoid stops by to pick up some insulation. while he is there he tells that i really need to come down to his place sometime and check out some wood that he has. it was salvaged out of an old hardware store that was being tore down not far from where i live. the building was built in 1890 so these boards were well over 100 years old. he told me that he thought these boards he had were red spruce, so i came down to have a look. the boards were all in the rough and weather grayed from sitting out so long but from what i could see of the grain pattern it certaintly looked like it could be spruce and the weight indicated that it might be some type of spruce as well. so i sawed off a hunk of one of the boards and brought it back to the shop to run through the planer and after doing so i am even more convinced i am dealing with some type of spruce. here is the thing though i am not an acoustic guy, i am planning to make my first one this spring, but up to this point i have only made electric instruments, and i have never really had any dealings with any type of tone wood. so though i have what appears to me to be some type of spruce i really dont know for sure if it is or not let alone what type it is and i was hopping that some of the more knowledgable folks here might be willing to chip in and help me out. i am really hoping that this stuff is a good tone wood because if it is i have about 40 2x12's of it that are 20 feet long however if someone must be the bearer of bad news and inform me i have junk then i guess thats just the way that its going to have to be. i got the best photos i could of the grain with my cheap little camera any help would be much apreciated, thanks.

Author:	peters instruments [ Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
he didnt give any reason for saying red spruce, thats just kind of the nature of this uncle, he likes to talk like he knows more than he really does sometimes. i am led to believe that these were used as floor joists becuase there are some nail holes down one of the narrow sides but i really dont know for sure. my thinking was the same that the older they were the more likely they would be local tress however in my area there are no or very very few evergreens that grow naturally ( in fact i have never seen one), our woods are dominated by big oaks, maple, walnut, and other deciduous varieties so i really doubt that these are from local trees.

Author:	alan stassforth [ Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
Shad, I hope it is spruce for ya. My initial thought was pine, because of the gray streaks, but might be staining. Cut the end, and sand it to see how quartersawn it is. Grain at 90 degrees? Or what. Kind of too red for pine though.

Author:	peters instruments [ Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
i guess i just didnt think that pine would have a grain that tight.the gray streaks are just from sitting outside, it was all rough and weather grayed to begin with. if i took it down a little more then all of that grey would disappear, but i only have a 12 inch planer so that board literally had it maxed out and i didnt want to make to many more passes just yet. the tree this came from was flat sawn but this particular board came from from the center, so i would say about 60 or 70 percent of width at more of less 90 degrees. one other thing, it did not look or smell like any pine that i have ever handled when i was working with it. but once again i have literally never handled spruce so i dont even know what i should be looking for. is there any way for me to test it or know for sure?

Author:	the Padma [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
Is like this ...well sorta...see that wood was sawed up not split...so for tops, even if it be quartered, will more than likely have run out. THat don't mean you can't use it, you just gonna have to pay attention to the run out, plane, sand and brace accordingly. However they may still be worth $ if re dressed and advertised locally or even on ebay...lotta dudes pay big bucks of good old clean wood. blessings

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Author:	bluescreek [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
This isn't red spruce but pine . But again that is my opinion . The graining doesn't look right for red. That large pitch pocked is something you see in pine . I think it may be white pine or Jack pine . Still you would need to really have it looked at to be sure . You also appear to have little pitch pockets all over the piece . If it is red it isn't luthier grade . Red is much lighter in color . Can it be spruce ? It can be many things. Most wood of the time was cut locally . White pine , yellow , and depending where you were fir were often more common . For your sake I hope it is red but it just doesn't look right . Red can have different looks caused by where on the mountain it grew , north side south side etc . but this doesn't have that look to me . It looks more like pine as I stated before . What did it smell like ? In my area pine usually has that sweet christmas tree smell . Good luck .

Author:	peters instruments [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
bluescreek wrote: What did it smell like ? In my area pine usually has that sweet christmas tree smell . Good luck . well like i said before, when i was cutting it and planing it it didnt smell anything like the pine that i have encountered, but maybe thats just due to the age?

Author:	Corky Long [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
Here's a thought. Regardless of what it is, as others have said, for it to be worthwhile for use as a top, it'l need to be quartersawn, clean (no knots, pitch pockets), and without much runout. Maybe in some of that stack there are some planks that meet those criteria. Might be fun to build with regardless of whether it's red spruce or not. If it's pine (and John's much more knowledgeable than I am) probably not worth it, but even so. One thing I've learned from others on the forum - there's a huge variability within species regarding stiffness to weight ratio. I think it would be interesting to do some density and deflection measurements on it. Pretty easy to do with a dial indicator ($50 on ebay) http://cgi.ebay.com/DIGITAL-DIAL-INDICA ... 9696640521 If you compare the density (weight per volume), and deflection - lots of good info on this here (essentially suspending the top between two fixed points, putting a fixed weight on the middle, and measuring how much it bounces back when you remove the weight) - and compare to some good luthier grade sitka and/or Red Spruce (of the same thickness of course), you can compare it's properties. Have fun with it and keep us posted.

Author:	bluescreek [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
A deflection test and finding what the ratio is may not tell use if it is red spruce or pine but can tell you the wood is usable for a top.

Author:	ChuckB [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
Hard to tell for sure from the pictures, but looks like doug fir to me. Chuck

Author:	bennyb [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
Before you go much further with this wood, you'll want to check those nail holes very carefully. I've got some doug fir joists from the same era that were nailed up with the old square nails, many of which broke off inside the hole during deconstruction. Probably best to just rip any questionable areas off; just takes one nail in your saw or planer. Good luck. benny

Author:	the Padma [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
peters instruments wrote: well thanks for all the help, suggestions, insights and comments, i will have to read up on deflection testing and all that jazz like i said i am more or less a complete novice when it comes to tone woods, so i have a lot to learn. i am curious about the grain runout issue, i wasnt real familiar with that term so i was doing some reading which seemed to suggest that unless the runout quite extreme say like 20 or 30 degrees, then it was not really a structural hazard, but more of an aesthetic issue, is that true? also these boards are thick enough that i would think there is a good chance i could split them and produce some boards without much runout, assuming that in the pile i find some good peices. is there any good way to test that sort of thing without spliting the wood? Ok here goes... "structural" hazard of runout in building houses schools and banks don't mean diddly squat. but on a 1/8 in plate for an instrument 20 or 30 degrees mean a real hassle in tooling that top and in its desire to cave in or buckle on you. Splitting is the easiest way to check how the grain is running...planing the surface is another. Take of a few shavings and see which a way the grain be running. but you gotta do this over the entire length of the board. Trees tend to grow with a twist which produces run out... thats why the best tops are split first to determine its suitability and then resawn from the split billets. Now i you really wanna know well then just send the Padma 6 linear feet of the stuff and me give you a complete analysis of the wood. ( be sure to include the usual $20 possessing fee) blessings Padma

Author:	timoM [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
Judging from your photos my guess is pinus resinosa, commonly called red pine or norway pine. I grew up in northern Minnesota, cut and processed hundreds of these trees as a kid. What does the wood smell like? T

Author:	John Arnold [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
It sure looks like spruce to me. I don't think it is pine, because pine has larger, darker knots, and I don't see any needle scars in the heart. The other clues are the ray fleck and bearclaw visible in the third photo. White spruce is more local to Northern Indiana. Another reason I lean toward white spruce is because of the blue stain in the heart. Smell is a pretty good indicator (for me), but spruce that old probably has lost most of the resiny odor. You don't have to split the wood to detect runout. Look at the edge of a QS board with a hand lens. The resin canals should be visible. If they are parallel with the face, then there is no runout. Also, planing the wood from both directions will show you if there is runout. In the 1930's, Martin built some of the best steel string flat tops ever created, using red spruce that was not cut from split billets. They minimized visible runout on the spiral logs by joining the heart edge, rather than the more accepted bark edge.

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Author:	Shane Neifer [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
I'm with John. It looks like spruce to me. Shane

Author:	Jody [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
doug fir was my first impression also...jody

Author:	alan stassforth [ Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
I still say pine. That big knot looks very famliar to me. I've seen that kind in pine, not fir or spruce. So, what is it Shad? You'd better find out.

Author:	peters instruments [ Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
well i havent been in the shop since Thursday and wont be till Tuesday or Wednesday probably, i have a feeling that planing it down a little bit further may make it a little easier to tell. a lot of the discoloration is because i didn't plane it down far enough, and the knot that allan was talking about was really moist from where it was out in the snow which i think might have made it a little more bold than it would be if it were dry. i'll do a test to figure out the density of the wood, but i'll have to do some reasearch to find out density for different wood types for that to be of any use.

Author:	K.O. [ Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
http://library.rawlingsforestry.com/ut-extension/wood_identification/pb1692.pdf

Author:	Jim Kirby [ Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
At any rate, cut out a top set from the boards and see what it feels like. Regardless of what it is, the actual piece of wood in hand is the judge. You need to pick out the portion of the stack that is best quartered, and from there investigate whether runout is within reasonable bounds, and whether there are cosmetic issues. If it looks like either cosmetic issues or structural issues are going to be limiting, then do some splitting and see if you have a ton of good bracing stock.

Author:	Tim Mullin [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
I've done rather a lot of wood identification over the years, and continue to refer to the keys in my old Wood Technology Textbook (Panshin and de Zeeuw) from my student days (I'm a registered professional forester in Canada, even if I currently live in NZ). From your pictures, the transition from earlywood to latewood seems very abrupt, and this pretty much rules out all NA species of spruce and their hybrids. It also rules out the "soft" pines (eastern and western white, and sugar pine). The presence and size of the resin canals in the latewood (visible on a clean, cut endgrain surface) is the next important feature to look at. Find yourself a piece of "hard" pine for comparison -- virtually any NA species will do (other than the "soft" pines listed above). You'll see that the resin canals are present in virtually every ring and are easily seen with the naked eye. If the canals on your unknown piece show a similar pattern and are of similar size, you're probably dealing with a hard pine (2- or 3-needle species), and you'll not likely indentify it any more precisely than that without a microscope, although some are more likely than others. Do the same thing for any known spruce comparison, and you'll not see the canals easily without a hand lens, and the tiny canals will be unevenly distributed and perhaps not visible at all in some rings. If the resin canals look similar to your spruce comparison, but the transition from earlywood to latewood is abrupt, then you're likely dealing with Douglas-fir or larch. If the transition is gradual (not the case from what I see in the pictures), then it could be spruce, but positive ID of any spruce other than Sitka is unlikely, even with microscopic examination. If you can't see any resin canals at all, even with a hand lens, then you're dealing with a Cupressacea, true fir or hemlock (but I doubt this is the case, given what I see in your pictures). As others have said, if you can resaw quartered plates with little runout from these pieces, they may have some value for guitar tops, but my bet is that they are not spruce.

Author:	K.O. [ Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
http://www.swst.org/teach/set2/struct1.html By the way its Kirby the rest is me playing...

Author:	K.O. [ Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: i think this is red spruce??? maybe you can help.
When I first saw it I thought Mojo Tone pine carve top lap slide... Pretty durn shure tisn't Doug fir... Dont think is spruce... Don't look much like sugar pine Look a bit like yeller pine did some thinkin and big clues is the age and east... So... http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/TechSheets/SoftwoodNA/htmlDocs/pinuspalustris.html Flecking that shows(looks like small pitch pockets) in pics 3&4 suggest/are exposed large resin canals(pine)...