If you're like me, you build a Florentine when you break the Venetian side you're bending!
I like the look of both depending on the overall style of the guitar...some say the Venetian is easier.
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| Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=30237 |
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| Author: | ChuckG [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
Which do you prefer and why? Which is easier to build? Which do players seem to prefer? Pros and cons. etc. I have only done Venetian because I can't seem to find any good instructions (plans) on Florentine construction methods, but I prefer the look of the Venetian. Thanks, Chuck |
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| Author: | L. Presnall [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
If you're like me, you build a Florentine when you break the Venetian side you're bending! I like the look of both depending on the overall style of the guitar...some say the Venetian is easier.
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| Author: | Haans [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
I prefer neither, although if I had to make one or die I would make the Venetian. |
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| Author: | Bill Hodge [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
Both! I delivered one to it's new owner last spring with a Florentine because that's the style he desired. I have an upcoming build with a Venetian because that recipient doesn't care for the Florentine style. Both are avid finger-stylists and one is a recording artist. Cosmetically, I like the Florentine. And In my opinion, it's easier to build as long as you're skilled at tight joinery because it will be highly obvious if you're not. Both have their issues, and both can cost you some side materials if you're not careful. I do believe the Florentine to be more forgiving because a good binding job, can hide mismatched joints if you need to. |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
I do both, but prefer the Florentine ... looks sexier to me. First cutaway acoustic I ever saw was an early 70s larrivee .. beautiful florentine !!!! I find the Florentine is easier to bend, tougher to bind. |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
I only like them on archtops and electrics, and they have to be rounded, points are for mandolins. I make still make them now and them, when asked to...   As for instructions, you just bend them like the rest of the side. I do them on a hot pipe, and I usually thin that part of the side a little more than the rest.Question: I love both Venice and Florence (who doesn't?), but I never understood what those wonderful cities have to do with guitar cutaways. And why is the Venetian one rounded, and Florentine pointy? If anything, I think the Venetian cutaway should be the pointy one, to reflect the shape of the stem of a gondola, or perhaps Saint Mark's Basilica. Then, at least I would remember which is which! So, what's the story here? Is it just a Gibson marketing thing? |
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| Author: | Kim [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
I had heard that because of the curve, the Venetian cutaway was named after the ancient Greek goddess Venus who best reflects the curves of a woman...it may be complete BS but is not something I will forget in a hurry.  Cheers Kim |
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| Author: | Mark Groza [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
I don't like either but for looks, i like the florentine best. |
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| Author: | RustySP [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
Yeah, The cutaways were named after godesses, Venus & Flo. Not the Italian cities like most people think. |
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| Author: | Hupaand [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
It's a barfighter's point, so it depends whether there is chicken wire in front of the bandstand. If it's played in a gentile surrounding, then the point is not necessary. |
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| Author: | peterm [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
I like the challenge and the looks of a nicely done Florentine cutaway. For years I wasn't crazy about them but I prefer them now. |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
I'm really picky about cutaway shapes, and dislike them most of the time. But I do like the playability aspect, and they can even improve the appearance if done just right, especially Florentine. Here is the most perfect I've seen, and on a dread shape no less (the worst looking with a cutaway, if you ask me) Attachment: 3487-1.jpg I also rather like Ervin Somogyi's Florentine. A little too big of a cut for my taste, but the curve is right Attachment: modified1.jpg Venetian cutaways look much better on 12 fret guitars, IMO. It's the upward curve that I don't like, and on a 12 fret you have enough room above the upper transverse brace to do a purely down-sloping cut. Petros has a great shape Attachment: _MG_1989.jpg 14 fret Venetian, probably my favorite is Taylor's GA shape, but it's still lacking something in the artsy feel department. But if you put enough shell on it, it looks pretty cool Attachment: psga1.jpg Construction wise... I haven't done either yet, but it seems like Venetians would be easier in every department except bending. Myself being a pipe bender, I'm thinking Florentines will be the better way to go, especially since my pipe is 3" diameter. I do have a 12-fret planned though, so I'll probably try and bend the venetian and tighten the horn while holding it backward on the pipe. Or just get a second pipe. It's claro walnut, so hopefully it will bend easy. |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
I prefer Florentine, although I haven't built either yet. I like Ervin Somogyi's geometry the best. Dennis, I was surprised at your first choice along side Ervin's, as the first one you picked has everything I don't like in a Florentine - to small a cut, too tight a curve back to the original outline. |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
Florentine here. I really don't like the look of a venetian cutaway. Don't know why, but I don't. I think it's because everything else on a guitar is generally about smooth curves. Upper & Lower bouts, waist, neck profile, heal transition to the neck, frets are smooth and curved (on the top) even most pegheads are smooth flowing designs. Why not make a statement with a nice point at the edge of the body. That's my opinion and I'm proud of it  Mind you, I also build true flat tops too, where as most y'all build with a domed top As for what's harder to construct. I can't really comment as I've not built a venetian (cause I don't like how they look). But if I were to comment I'd say a Florentine would be harder to build. At least 2 more miters at the binding and purfling then a Venetian and up to a total of 6 more if you have side purflings. Then there's binding the tip of the cutaway. I'd say bending for the Florentine is easier though, even the binding. However I don't think the lack of miters out way the difficult bending on the Venetian. If one has a good bending set up, then the Venetian should be pretty simple. It still takes lots of practice to get those miters right, and the first few times you have to bend another set of bindings because the miter came up short, you'll want to scream.Here's a start for your construction of the Florentine cutaway. |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
Jim Kirby wrote: Dennis, I was surprised at your first choice along side Ervin's, as the first one you picked has everything I don't like in a Florentine - to small a cut, too tight a curve back to the original outline. It has to do with the curve shape and angle at the point. Ervin's cut is sort of like taking the Goodall and scaling it up, moving it down deeper into the body, and then loosening the curve a bit. The moving it down is what I don't like, because it makes too long of a flat spot along the side of the neck (purely aesthetic, I mean). They both have a nice outward feel to the curve as it comes toward the point, rather than curling back up too sharply. Goodall's gets to a little more upward of an angle, but it looks right because the cut is smaller, so the angle of the body line at the point of the horn is different than on Ervin's. Here's an example of what I especially dislike in a Florentine Attachment: Florentine_Cutaway.jpg Not flush with the fingerboard edge, too deep, curves back up too much and makes a long thin spike, and the curve is too circular looking. |
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| Author: | peterm [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
Todd Stock wrote: ....Finally - some builders hate cuts...they definitely require a higher level of skill and greater number of labor hours. Matching a neck to the body for a perfect flush fit after finishing is a demanding task...probably why most builders prefer to leave a little square of body sticking out in the breeze. I know exactly what you are talking about. For that reason some builder don't do cutaways very often. It is a task to get everything to line up nicely but in the end the results are worth it...     
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
I will go both ways on cut outs, each has it's own intrinsic beauty, or ugliness as it were. Finishing up a Florentine now. |
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| Author: | Ken Franklin [ Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
I have tried several styles of cutaway over the last few years and I like most of them. The venetians are harder to bind with if you have a pronounced dome on the back, but the florentines are harder to join, as others have said. |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
Hey Ken, I like your outward pointed style in the first and third pics! Never seen it actually done before, but I was thinking about trying a shape like that a while back, and just yesterday after checking this thread I doodled over a photo of a non-cutaway guitar to see how it would look: Attachment: PointyCutawayMockup.jpg Almost posted it, but figured nobody would like it. Guess I was wrong Perhaps worth doing sometime after all, if it fits the personality of the guitar. Maybe on my port orford/spalted mango jumbo with turquoise water themed inlays, since the resulting guitar shape kind of reminds me of a pitcher  As for heel shapes, I love this one: Attachment: CordobaHeel.jpg Nice and organic looking and pleasing feel to the hand, with no sharp edges. And on a factory guitar, go figure. Not particularly well crafted with the binding gaps and filler putty, but it's all smoothed out so it doesn't really matter. The shape works best on an integral neck and with the shallow body, but it could be done with a separate neck with a seam in the middle of the curved part, if you attach the neck before finishing so you can sand the seam smooth. No good if you ever have to do a neck reset though. Maybe you could do it with a butt joint bolt-on, having the heel on the neck fit to that 45 degree angle and join at the vertical binding. Then it should still be pretty well flush after a reset, and a tiny misalignment wouldn't be as noticeable. The actual shaving to adjust the neck angle would be a lot trickier though, with the 45 degree angle part. |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
Todd Stock wrote: One of these days I will figure out a good way to get everything right without constantly worrying about it...might even be a good topic for a separate thread. I like the flush heel / cutaway style, and prefer that the heel's profile makes a smooth transition into the lines of the cutaway. In the case of this guitar, that meant the side of the heel had to be sort of flat, or perpendicular to the side near where they meet, as a more rounded heel shape would have ruined the geometry. Its easier to do this type of fitting with the neck attached to the guitar, of course. 
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| Author: | My Dog Bob [ Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
Circa 1932 Mario Maccaferri... flush heel |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
Ken... I just realized, that first pic is a flush fit with a heel cap narrower than the fingerboard, isn't it? How did you do that, just careful twisting when bending the side on a pipe? Looks amazing, even better than the carved curvy heel I posted, and definitely better than the usual flush fit wide heel (which is still better than having a ledge of any kind, but ideally I like a heel cap shape like yours but even a bit narrower). I'll have to give it a try sometime
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| Author: | Ken Franklin [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
You're right, Dennis. The side has to be twisted when I bend the cutaway on the pipe. I have to shape the head block to match the curve also. I like the way it feels and looks, but it's extra effort. Not nearly as much trouble as your guitar though. Like Todd's transition, it has to be final shaped and sanded with the neck attached for a good fit. |
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| Author: | Daniel Minard [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
I am so glad to hear I'm not the only one who fusses & worries until the heel is finally flush fit to the sides. I have spent a lot of time drawing & redrawing cutaway shapes & find its much easier to get a pleasing shape on the cutaway side if I shrink the width on the treble side upper bout. (sometimes, right to the waist) It doesn't take much, but can help to avoid the awkward look, so many cutaways have. As far as Venetian vs. Florentine... It often depends on the shape of the body. Some body shapes lend themselves to one or another, while some look fine with either, as long as they are well balanced. Venetian is much less work, once you get the side bent. And as previously mentioned, when you break a side, it's time to build a Florentine. Only happened to me once, (with a really cranky piece of high runout sapele) but it worked out great. I do have a good size stack of broken practice sides from figuring how to get the Venetian bend. |
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| Author: | My Dog Bob [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Venetian vs Florentine Cutaways |
I have my homemade Fox style bender set up to bend a very abrupt Venetian cutaway with a tapered-flush heel. This was an absolute pain to do in a reproducible way on a hot iron (although I still have to touch it up on an iron) The cutaway, which is a really hard a radius-ed bend, is much less apt to fracture now as well. In the future I think I will be creating a steel framework to tension the bending-slats during the bend which should help hold the sides harder to the mold which should cut down on the need for touch ups afterward. For whatever it's worth.. Regards, Peter |
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