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| Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=30079 |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
I plan to pore fill with Z-Poxy on my 6th. Considering that it is EIR with EIR bindings and Sycamore/Wenge/Maple purfling lines, what's the best way to seal the light purflings to keep from staining them with purple EIR dissolved in Z-Poxy. I thought of Shellac, but then I wondered if it would be dissolved by the solvents in the epoxy, since they are alcohol friendly when thinning. Would egg white seal the light lines? Other methods? Z-Poxy the purflings first? Attachment: P1040621 (Large).JPG
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| Author: | Tom West [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
Waddy: I've done EIR with curly maple binding,BW purfling and started directly with zpoxy without a problem. Hopfully others will chime in with their experience. Tom |
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| Author: | BobK [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
Waddy, I've had similar results as Tom. You might want to inlay a piece of EIR scrap just to verify, but I've not had problems with bleeding. But, ZPoxy will shrink and reveal pores a couple months after your final finish has cured. It's a look I actually like, but be forewarned. BTW, that's a spiffy purfling scheme you've got there. Bob |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
Waddy has such a top notch sense of design. Tom |
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| Author: | Mike Lindstrom [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
I've got no advice, but I've got a compliment. That looks great. Mike |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
Thanks for the compliments, and the........ help? Guess I'm going straight up. Glad to hear it's not an issue. Still have a way to go, but making progress. |
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| Author: | SteveCourtright [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
Waddy, while you might be able to go z-poxy without any sealer, I know Joe White seals every guitar, purfs and etc., before filling, no matter what the wood just to avoid any bleeding. It seems like a good precaution. Maybe a quick PM to Joe, I am sure that he checks in daily. |
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| Author: | joe white [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
Waddy, I can't comment on ZPoxy but with West System, I have no bleed into lighter woods. I guess the key might be to move along pretty quickly. I try to pull the epoxy over the surface only once or twice on the first application. |
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| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
I don't think anything bleeds worse than Cocobolo and I have done Z-poxy on 2 plus 3 EIR and a Bubinga and have not had any bleeding in to the light purfling or binding. Fred |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
Yay! I'm convinced. Thanks guys! |
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| Author: | crich [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
No suggestion here either, just wanted to say I like your designs and craftsmanship. clinton |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 1:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
I've been struggling with wood bindings, and can really appreciate what you've done here Waddy! |
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| Author: | Daniel Minard [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
From what I have read, you definitely don't want to use shellac under epoxy. I actually like a little colour in my maple bindings. When doing the final naptha wipe, I work at drawing some of the colour from the back & sides into the maple... Makes the figure stand out like crazy. I make sure the top is well sealed first, though. Nice work, by the way. Love those purflings! |
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| Author: | joe white [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
SteveCourtright wrote: I know Joe White seals every guitar, purfs and etc., before filling, no matter what the wood just to avoid any bleeding. It seems like a good precaution. No, That's not it Steve. All wood gets sealed after pore filling. Easy to get this stuff confustificationalirrated. |
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| Author: | Tim Mullin [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
So Joe, I gather you epoxy pore fill with west systems. Is it immune to the slow shrinkage and reappearance of pores mentioned earlier in this thread with Zpoxy (and which annoys the he'll out of me)? I like the translucence of epoxy but want to find one that keeps the pores filled and stable under finish. |
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| Author: | joe white [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
Tim Mullin wrote: So Joe, I gather you epoxy pore fill with west systems. Is it immune to the slow shrinkage and reappearance of pores mentioned earlier in this thread with Zpoxy (and which annoys the he'll out of me)? I like the translucence of epoxy but want to find one that keeps the pores filled and stable under finish. Tim, I'm not sure that a "non shrinking" pore fill exists. A pore is a void. A void in the surface and in our case the surface is wood which can be somewhat unstable. The wood is going to move, the pore filler, sealer, finish, inlay material, binding and whatever else exists along with the wood of a guitar all move at their own rate with environmental changes. The ticket is to find the finishing and filling materials that seem to work best for your guitars. I can't elaborate on any epoxy other than West System since it is the only one I've used. I think that it works very well for my applications but I am not bold enough to say that it won't move or allow the pore to appear over time. I think the reappearance of pores might depend a lot on how the guitar is cared for in the future. |
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| Author: | Kim [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 6:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
joe white wrote: The ticket is to find the finishing and filling materials that seem to work best for your guitars. I have come to that same conclusion with lots of things related to this craft Joe, most will work, they all will fail, its just a matter of perseverance a lot of times to get things right. All over the net you will read posts from people suggesting that a certain method or product related to a particular task is problematic, and then when you look a little further, there will be just as many positive experiences listed for the very same thing. My take is that it is very easy to get things wrong when you try anything new. If you are having problems, yet other people are sprouting success, then look more carefully at what 'you' are doing wrong before you move on to something 'better'. Back in the days before the internet, that is what they use to call learning from 'your own' mistakes. Now it would appear that more, and more, many want all the bumps ironed out for them before they will commit to getting their hands dirty, and if it does not work first up right out the bottle just as the web tute said it would, then we move on in search of the great panacea. I have a three strikes ur out policy, test, examine, research the issues, adjust procedure. Test, examine, research the issues, adjust procedure. Test, examine. If on the 3rd attempt I see no accepted progression in my results....'then' I move on. Cheers Kim |
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| Author: | SteveCourtright [ Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
joe white wrote: SteveCourtright wrote: I know Joe White seals every guitar, purfs and etc., before filling, no matter what the wood just to avoid any bleeding. It seems like a good precaution. No, That's not it Steve. All wood gets sealed after pore filling. Easy to get this stuff confustificationalirrated. Thanks for straightening me out about that, Joe! |
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| Author: | Tim Mullin [ Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
joe white wrote: Tim Mullin wrote: So Joe, I gather you epoxy pore fill with west systems. Is it immune to the slow shrinkage and reappearance of pores mentioned earlier in this thread with Zpoxy (and which annoys the he'll out of me)? I like the translucence of epoxy but want to find one that keeps the pores filled and stable under finish. Tim, I'm not sure that a "non shrinking" pore fill exists. A pore is a void. A void in the surface and in our case the surface is wood which can be somewhat unstable. The wood is going to move, the pore filler, sealer, finish, inlay material, binding and whatever else exists along with the wood of a guitar all move at their own rate with environmental changes. The ticket is to find the finishing and filling materials that seem to work best for your guitars. I can't elaborate on any epoxy other than West System since it is the only one I've used. I think that it works very well for my applications but I am not bold enough to say that it won't move or allow the pore to appear over time. I think the reappearance of pores might depend a lot on how the guitar is cared for in the future. Thanks, Joe. I've been using Zpoxy for two years or so, and while I get beautiful results initially, I'm really not happy with the way the guitars age. I had occasion last month to see the first guitar I pore filled with Zpoxy, and really was quite sad with the result. I wouldn't have said the instrument was abused or stored badly. Some folks seem to rave about Zpoxy, while a few of us seem to have found the shrinkage in pores to be extreme for our taste. I'm ready to give up on the Zpoxy. I'll probably never make pores disappear completely or forever, but it would be nice to get a better result than what I've been able to produce with Zpoxy. So, I was curious about your experiences with West System. What hardener have you found works for you? Do you use any other fillers or additives? Thanks Joe. |
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| Author: | joe white [ Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
Tim, I have been using the 207 special clear hardener and I am quite happy with it. I only mix 4 CC total at most at a time (usually less) and move pretty quickly. I had a test instrument here for about two years that had been pore filled with West and there was not a bit of shrinkage and that was after purposely subjecting it to numerous temp and RH swings. No filler or additives and definitely no thinning. |
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| Author: | Tim Mullin [ Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Protecting purflings when filling with Z-Poxy Question |
joe white wrote: Tim, I have been using the 207 special clear hardener and I am quite happy with it. I only mix 4 CC total at most at a time (usually less) and move pretty quickly. I had a test instrument here for about two years that had been pore filled with West and there was not a bit of shrinkage and that was after purposely subjecting it to numerous temp and RH swings. No filler or additives and definitely no thinning. Sounds like a good place for me to start. I've got a test Englemann/EIR OM on the go at the moment with a number of other trial features -- the West pore filling will add to the list! Thanks Joe! |
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