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Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=30039		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  GregG [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:54 am ]
Post subject:  Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
After reading the thread about the amine blush with epoxy, and potential danger to ones health, I would like to find another adhesive to use for my fretboard glue-down and was hoping to hear what type of glue others are using for this application, and how long have you used this glue without problems.

Thanks,
Greg
Author:  Alan [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
I've never had a problem with Titebond or LMI white.
Author:  Colin S [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
In nearly 50 instruments I've never had a problem with LMI white for the first few and more recently Fish glue. Clamp to a good straight caul and the supposed distortion from using water based glues has never happened to me.

Colin
Author:  Kim [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
Hey Greg, careful you don't ditch they baby with the bath water. :)

Epoxy is a great adhesive and if my post put you off it was not my intention. The point I was trying to make is, if we are going to use epoxy in this craft, then we need to understand what amine blush is and how best to avoid it. As I thought I made clear in my last post in the "Smiths All wood Epoxy" thread :http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=29987&start=25A a few precautions and some awareness of what you are dealing with can go a very long way toward avoiding all the problems of amine blush and the sensitivity issues with epoxy.

Must ask, have you had any issue with amine blush to this point?

Cheers

Kim
Author:  GregG [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
Hey Kim,

I appreciate that, I have not had any issues with amine blush, but really I'm more concerned with the health issues and figure why even deal with epoxy if there are alternatives that fit the bill without all of the potential issues.

Greg
Author:  Kim [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
Can't argue with that mate. [:Y:]

Cheers

Kim
Author:  CharlieT [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
I'm sure this is a newbie question, but is there ever a need to remove the fretboard from the neck? Epoxy is more permanent than some other glues, so if one can avoid the issues that can result from introducing moisture, wouldn't it be advantageous to use something like hide or fish glue for that joint?
Author:  Tom West [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
Charlie: I've removed fret boards glued with epoxy using a heat lamp. Not much of a problem.
Tom
Author:  CharlieT [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
westca wrote:
Charlie: I've removed fret boards glued with epoxy using a heat lamp. Not much of a problem.
Tom


Ah, OK...good to know. Thanks Tom!
Author:  GregG [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
Yeah, I've found epoxy releases easier than fish glue.
Author:  CharlieT [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
GregG wrote:
Yeah, I've found epoxy releases easier than fish glue.


Excellent - thanks Greg!
Author:  bluescreek [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
I have #115 out of the shop this week . I do not use any epoxy on a guitar. I use tite bond . Martin glues on the fretboards with tite bond and do not have issues . Epoxy has a higher dampening effect than white glue or tite bond . I know some people think it is fine and to honest it may be but I prefer a removable glue in case the fret board ever needs to come off .
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
I glued my fretboards with Titebond, Gorilla white (wood glue) and currently HHG without any warping issue, ever. Perhaps it is because I use a dead straight massive caul with plenty of clamps and leave it to cure overnight.
Epoxy releases with heat, more or less depends on the epoxy brand, quality and mix ratio. In any case, it can be a real pain and when I had to do it I came pretty close to charring the wood.
When I dado CF rods in fretboard and neck stock for tilt necks I use polyurethane glue (Gorilla, but the Titebond is also very good) since those will presumably never be disassembled. I also use polyurethane glue to laminate necks.
I will admit I do not get the enthusiasm for fish glue, the curing time and clean up seem more than I would be willing to suffer. Besides a lot can be done with HHG, and I don't think I will go to Hell if I use a bit of synthetic glue on my guitars in the right places.
Author:  Jeff Highland [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
I have used titebond and epoxy but now very very much prefer HHG
As Laurent says, use a flat caul etc
I also spend 2-3 minutes heating and drying the mating surfaces with a heat gun before applying glue so there is not any real increase in mosture content after adding the glue, and there is plenty of time for clamping.

I really hated cleaning up epoxy squeezout and in a repair situation, with a french polished instrument, you can't just grab aa alcohol dampened rag,
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
Titebond works fine for me. I use a caul on top of the board. I never understood why people think there's some kind of problem that calls for epoxy.
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
I see that I'm in good company: use a caul and give it plenty of time for the water to get out, and you too can glue gingerboards with water based glues.

The only times I use epoxy are for gluing to end grain, and other places where the minimal shrinkage is useful, such as reinforcing rods.
Author:  Matt Bouchie [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
Alan Carruth wrote:
and you too can glue gingerboards with water based glues.


Hmmm.... I think maybe we talked a little too much about ginger in class the other day! :lol:

Matt
Author:  cwood8656 [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
LMI white for me. I then clamp to a thick, flat caul with as many clamps as can be made to fit. I let it dry over night.

No problems so far.

Chris.
Author:  GregG [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
Hey, thanks for all of the input, got to love this place.....Good, because I hate epoxy, it's a big mess not to mention the other potential issues.....I already use a large caul with plenty of clamps so I'll just move on to another glue.

Cheers,
Greg
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
FWIW, the myth of epoxy not being reversable has been covered any number of times around here. Epoxy formulations typical to woodworking come apart at least as easy as titebond.

As to why use it, I can say that I can repeatably glue fretted boards onto necks and not have to touch the tops of the frets. I couldn't say that when I was using titebond.

Clearly titebond can be used successfully but it can and does introduce some unpredictability. Wood expands almost instantly when exposed to water. The problems arise when one piece of wood moves differently than the one you are gluing it to. Glueing woods with different grains or different densities (like fretboards and necks) can introduce stresses that get glued in place and don't go away when all the water is gone. Gluing to a flat caul helps but the stresses can still be there and cause problems when you string up the guitar, usually in the form of twisting.

The problems in necks typically aren't large or frequent and are even less of an issue for those who fret after the board is on. But it doesn't take a lot of experience with water based glue to know that funny things can happen when you are laminating pieces with large surface areas. Try glueing two 6" wide layers of different veneer together for purfling strips. It's a good way to make a cylinder.
Author:  GregG [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
Hey Kent,

I was waiting for you to join this conversation(party pooper :D ) as this topic has been discussed before and I know your position(which has been mine by the way)....Uh, don't know, guess I'll give it a try again.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
You knew I couldn't resist forever.....

You pre-fret, right? If I didn't pre-fret, I would probably go back to titebond or at least try it again. That second chance to flatten the board helps.

What's the concern with amine blush? Finish not sticking at the glue line? Haven't heard that one. Is it really a problem in guitars where we tend to work in warm, dry environments?

Sensitivity is another issue though. I always wear gloves and a respirator.
Author:  GregG [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
Kent, for me it really is about the sensitivity/health concerns, I've never seen the amine blush either. I have been experimenting with fretting after the board is glued, this does allow me the opportunity to flatten/work the board one last time before frets go on so maybe the other glues would work considering I'm doing it this way now.....I have had great results with the process I'm using so I hate to mess up a good thing, but for the sake of good health I might give water-based glue a shot again. By the way, your guitars are looking mighty spiffy these days, good work my friend!!

Greg
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
I use titebond. I apply just enough glue so that the surface glistens without being opaque, and clamp overnight. Never had a problem.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative to Epoxy - Gluing Fretboard to Neck
Filippo Morelli wrote:
... I pulled the caul after six hours and could not believe how the thing wanted to corkscrew. Clamped right back up and it was fine the next day.
Filippo


That's interesting. I'll give that a try next time I use titebond on large surfaces. But I can't figure out why that would work. At 6 hours, the glue is pretty well set. Seems like if it needs to dry to flatten out, it would flatten whether clamped or not (and I know things like that don't flatten if unclamped, even after years!). Do you think the glue is creeping in those next 18 hours? Not arguing, I just don't understand it.
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