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| Fish Glue http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=30029 |
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| Author: | fingerstyle1978 [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Fish Glue |
Lately I have seen a lot of high praise for this stuff. I'm a bit confused though. Technically it is a hide glue right? So shouldn't you have to heat it up? This stuff says its ready to use. No heat required, which is very appealing to me. Is this the right stuff? http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=20019&cat=1,110,42965 |
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| Author: | TonyKarol [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
Yep .. right out of the bottle .... unlike hide, its liquid at room temp, why heat it ???? |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
That's the stuff. It is Norland's Fish Glue, repackaged. You can buy much more cheaply, direct from Norland, but the minuimum purchase is 1 gallon. Shelf life is an issue, but I have been using the old glue for thinning and flooding rosettes, and such, and it's great for that. No hardening issues at all. One thing though, and it's important, always stir it well or shake it well before using. If you re-decant into smaller containers with some space in them, it will shake just fine. |
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| Author: | BruceHerrmann [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
Have been using the stuff from another source, can't remember the name, sold in quarts. Probably the Norland product. Have never had a problem with it, completed 3 or 4 guitars and numerous repairs with it. It has it's place. I keep the quart refrigerated and a small bottle out for use. Replace the contents of the bottle every 2 months, maybe 3 if I forget. Let it sit 12 hours though, not like HHG in that respect. Has the same response to heat as HHG for neck removal etc. No quick grab, plan on taking time with the joint as it will creep under clamping unless you are careful. HHG is better in that respect. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
Anybody read this book?? http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merc ... ory_Code=N |
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| Author: | Daniel Minard [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
I use fish glue extensively & like it a lot. The long open time certainly takes the worry out of top & back glue-ups. This is the first I have heard about shelf life issues. From information posted here, in previous posts, it didn't sound like a problem. Some folks mentioned 2 - 3 years storage without any apparent degradation. I refrigerate all but a small bottle I keep in the shop. One thing I have noticed is that the viscosity changes from batch to batch. I had had to water down one batch, a little, to get it to spread easily. Waddy... Can you tell us where you read / heard about the shelf life issue? I contacted the distributor in California & the guy I talked to said it was "unlimited" when refrigerated. He didn't sound like an authority on the topic, for sure and I would appreciate info from a knowledgeable source. On the Norland site I read that their fish glue is made from sturgeon intestines. (IIRC) |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
I've used a LV bottle for about 2y, never in the fridge, it even exp some very high temperatures in the summer. When I reached the bottom I did a test with it and seemed fine. Then I popped a fresh one and it seemed stickier and with more spider silk when doing the finger test, but I repeat the wood glue test made with the old stuff seemed OK. |
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| Author: | fingerstyle1978 [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
I just grabbed some of the Norland stuff. They do offer quarts for $14.00 but their minimum oreder is $25.00 so kinda pointless. I used tightbond to brace my top. I hope that's not an issue. I have yet to try hot hide glue. Seems like a pain to maintain the temp and messy to clean up each day. I wanted the fish glue for closing the box and the fretboard. Any issues I should be aware of? Thanks |
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| Author: | BruceHerrmann [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
Have used fish glue for both closing the box and fretboard. For closing the box, I used indexed braces which run through the kerfing and the side. They are covered by the binding process so no problem there. That allows me a positive fit when I go to close up the top and back. So I have no problem with fish glue creep and don't have to rush like I do with HHG. I now many here have techniques that don't make them feel rushed with HHG, I don't. Not that good at it. For the board, I use small locating dowels which insure that the board does not move during gluing. This is a really easy procedure and once you do it you'll never again try to glue a board without them. Try this article for info on collagen glues. http://www.wpatrickedwards.com/gluearticle.htm |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
Alexandru Marian wrote: I've used a LV bottle for about 2y, never in the fridge, it even exp some very high temperatures in the summer. When I reached the bottom I did a test with it and seemed fine. Then I popped a fresh one and it seemed stickier and with more spider silk when doing the finger test, but I repeat the wood glue test made with the old stuff seemed OK. Pretty much the same experience here. I suspect fish glue was used for many years before they had refrigeration and mine doesn't seem to have suffered. YMMV. |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
For the FB you need to seal both the ebony and the spruce well with blonde shellac. When done all dried fish will just pop off when helped by a sharp something. As for the neck shaft, it is preferable to keep it as thick as possible and carve it only after all water has gone. Keep the clamping for at least 12h. Make sure you have quality indexing as it sure slides heavily under clamping. But I guess all of this can be said about PVA too. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
Does the liquid Fish Glue "pull" stuff together as well as the hot hide glue? Mike |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
I think this pulling together is almost a myth when it comes to guitar making and mostly works in veneering only. I did put together some purfling sandwiches with hide just by pressing them together and rubbing a finger along them, and they glued fine and held when bending on the pipe. With fish I definitely need to clamp for several hours. But overall, get the fit or the clamping wrong in a real joint besides veneers and you get a bad joint no matter what glue... In any case cured fish is similar in hardness to hide. No trace of that plastic, slightly soft feeling you get with PVA. Stick a chisel in it and you get eye piercing shards too. But overall it is maybe a bit more tenacious, less crumbly, and I get the same feeling when beating test joints. I would not try to pop open a violin dry if made with fish. |
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| Author: | Elman Concepcion [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
Mike O'Melia wrote: Yeap. I read it. It is a great Book. And if you want to use hide glue it will help you feel more comfortable with it. |
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| Author: | muthrs [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
Alexandru wrote: Quote: For the FB you need to seal both the ebony and the spruce well with blonde shellac. When done all dried fish will just pop off when helped by a sharp something. Not sure what you mean here, can you elaborate. |
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| Author: | Daniel Minard [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
I believe that fish glue does "pull" as it dries. A couple of years ago, I glued fibre purfling "frets" into a Weiss fingerboard. The board curled so badly, I had to make a replacement. Just one observation... |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
I was trying to say that the edges and face of the fingerboard, and the upper bout of the guitar (not the actual joint surfaces!!) should be well sealed with blonde shellac so they do not get affected by the glue squeeze out. |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
A very good price for fish glue, which I strongly suspsct is just repacaged Norland, is "The Olde Mill Cabinet Shop". Their "Dry Odroless Hide Glue, 192 gs" is also quite reasonable, and its good stuff. https://www.oldemill.com/store/index.php/cPath/36?osCsid=709a9b9cfc2bfcaaf6195008d0bfa725 Daniel Minard wrote: Waddy... Can you tell us where you read / heard about the shelf life issue? I'm not Waddy, but it says 2 years shelf life on the Lee Valley bottle. I have used fish glue that has been kept in room teperature for as long as 5 years without problems, so I suppose they are just "making sure". I recently got a gallon, filled up a large bottle for the shop, and put most of it in the freezer. I don't expect to restock anytime soon... Daniel Minard wrote: On the Norland site I read that their fish glue is made from sturgeon intestines. (IIRC) That's genuine isinglass glue (expensive! Sold by Dick gmbh among others). The Norland fish glue is mainly skin from deep water fish such as cod. |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
Mike O'Melia wrote: Does the liquid Fish Glue "pull" stuff together as well as the hot hide glue?Mike I'm not sure if it "pulls" as well as hide glue, but it certainly shrinks as it dries. Enough so that it will chip glass, if you apply it to its surface, which is something glass artists take advantage of. A simple experiment is to spread some FG to a piece thin, flexible material (I just did it on a sheet of cork), and leave it to dry; it will shrink enough to make a shallow "bowl", covered with FG on the inside. I don't know if it has been mentioned already, but one reason I like to use hot hide glue instead of fish glue where practical, is that it is much easier to clean up. Fish glue does not gel like hide glue, and it can get quite messy, so plan accordingly. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
Sorry I missed the question in time, but as Arnt said, on the Lee Valley bottle. I have also had email conversations with Norland, himself, regarding the subject of Fish glue and it's hygroscopic nature and how it reacts to moisture after it's dry. I believe JJ has also had some interaction with Norland, who is very accessible. And, yes, it does shrink and pull parts together, though, as Arnt said, maybe not as much as HHG. It sticks to itself, it can be re-wetted and will still stick as well as if you had applied it just prior to mating the pieces. In theory, you could spread it on your kerfing, let it dry, come back and wet it, and apply the back. I've never tried that, but it's the nature of the glue. It is more difficult to get a release than with HHG, though. It does require some moisture in the joint itself. Very hard to do with a tight joint. I had to remove a back glued with Fish glue and it made a mess. I was inexperienced too, which probably didn't help. I also agree that clean-up of HHG is so much easier. Dried HHG will wash off of any surface as easily as fish glue, but cleaning off the gelled HHG is definitely the easiest clean-up of any glue I've tried. Even specs of HHG pop off an unsealed surface easier than Fish Glue. My choice for everything inside is first for HHG, then either Fish or LMI White for all other gluing, depending on how long I want to wait. If I'm in a hurry, I use LMI White. It dries as hard and brittle as Fish or HHG, unlike Titebond. |
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| Author: | BruceHerrmann [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
I could not remember the source for the fish glue I use but Arnt got it, The Olde Mill Cabinet Shop, their stuff seems to be as good as it gets and the price is good. While there, look around, they carry quite a few interesting things. For fish glue clean-up, I keep a lot of long handle q-tips ready and they seem to remove excess easily and with a minimum of moisture on the q-tip. |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
BruceHerrmann wrote: So I have no problem with fish glue creep and don't have to rush like I do with HHG. is there supposed to be some problem with fish glue creeping? |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
Every glue that cures by evaporation of a solvent loses volume as it cures. Someone somewhere wrote something about this being a big virtue of hide glue. It became one of those memes that catch on. If you look in Art Overholzer's old book, he talks about pulling the joint closed as it cures as being a big advantage for Titebond. If you clamp well, this is just a non-issue for any glue. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
I think the real advantage is for rubbed joints and installing dentellones/tentellones in a classical top, where no clamping is used. I would not try that with Titebond. Maybe it will work, but I'd never be comfortable with it. You can do it with either fish or HHG, though without problem. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fish Glue |
As I recall, David was introduced to FG at the Romanillos Course. I do not know if that has a bearing on his preference. Some people just don't like to fiddle with heating glue all day in the shop. |
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