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| fish glue and tentalones http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=29988 |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | fish glue and tentalones |
In a recent thread on what glues people use for what applications, one person mentioned using fish glue for gluing in the individual tentalones in classical guitar building. This is often done using hide glue, and I always thought the ability to do this is based on the quick grab and gelling of the hide glue. I thought that the long open time of the fish glue would make this sort of press-and-go operation, with no clamping, inappropriate. At least someone thinks this is not the case, and I'm hoping to hear others weigh in on this. I'd like to give it a go (likely even tomorrow, as I leave my recently completed furniture building exercise behind and get back to the real thing.) What do you all think? (I've got nothing against hauling out the glue pot, but the fish glue is so much easier.) |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fish glue and tentalones |
I have only used hide glue for this, but I believe David La Plante has used it for dentellones. As I understand it works just like HHG. You put it on and put the dentellone in place, maybe with a little rub, and hold for 20 or 30 seconds. It grabs pretty fast. You can't put it under tension for 12 hours, but it will suck the pieces together just like hhg.f I don't know that I'd say clean up is easier with fish glue than HHG. |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fish glue and tentalones |
Indeed Fish glue works very well for Dentellones (or Peonies if you prefer). The high tack and non-swim characteristics of this glue work nicely for this function. I use a little sticker blade in an exacto handle to spear these and place. Once stuck, you can gently hold it in place with your finger while giving a little wggle on the blade to disengage, it also allows you to slightly adjust the position if needed. This stuff drys harder than the hinges of hell with no flex whatsoever, the long drying time is of no consequence here as one still needs to fit up a back and close the body before removing it from the form and solera. Attachment: Laplante#96Dentellones.jpg Attachment: Laplante#96Dentellones2.jpg
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| Author: | Bob Shanklin [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fish glue and tentalones |
I don't know why there is a fuss about cleanup time with Fish glue. I use the High-Tack from LeeValley (which I am led to believe is Norlands) , and cleanup is the same as HHG, even 48hours later. I just wish I was as fast as the Flash, so I could use HHG for everything.  Bob |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fish glue and tentalones |
I have used fish for my first 5 guitars, but switched to hide for the next 5. Fish is OK but I prefer hide just because it dries so much faster. If you must clamp fish dentellones, I've seen a guy using long flat sticks with a slit along the lenght. Imagine 8" long clothes pins. Before switching to hide I wanted to find some steel(y) wire and make circle clamps. |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fish glue and tentalones |
Thanks everyone. David's vote has tipped the balance for me. I'm going to give it a go. |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fish glue and tentalones |
I'm with David also! The fishglue he & I use is great! It's a Norland product! It's so much easier to use than HHG! Plus it just works! NO glue pots! Great open time. You'll need Dynamite to loosen the joint-IF you made it well! That's another subject!-GLUE JOINTS! If you do not have wood to wood contact-YOU do not have a glue joint! Mike |
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| Author: | CharlieT [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fish glue and tentalones |
Mike Collins wrote: I'm with David also! The fishglue he & I use is great! It's a Norland product! It's so much easier to use than HHG! Plus it just works! NO glue pots! Great open time. You'll need Dynamite to loosen the joint-IF you made it well! That's another subject!-GLUE JOINTS! If you do not have wood to wood contact-YOU do not have a glue joint! Mike Mike - may I ask what fish glue you use and where you get it? Sorry if you or David already answered that and I missed it. |
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| Author: | unkabob [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fish glue and tentalones |
Clamping soundboard tentalones on the solera is tricky. I use bamboo chopsticks,the ones still joined at the top, with one or two elastic bands at the top for grip. I may have cut the pointy ends off for more parallel grip. I bought two packages at the dollar store several years ago and haven't opened the second package yet. They just reach four and a half inches deep. Bob 
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fish glue and tentalones |
CharlieT wrote: Mike - may I ask what fish glue you use and where you get it? Sorry if you or David already answered that and I missed it. I've been using the product from Lee Valley. (Is that repackaged Norland's?) I use it for almost everything now, except bridges and fretboards. Even for general shop use - I don't have a bottle of Titebond at this point. |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fish glue and tentalones |
Definitely no, not so soon anyway. I never try clean it like hhg. When I was using it I just smeared the extra around. Next day i just had a lot of sanding to do. It never occurred to me to wait say 2-3h for it to be harden enough so it can be picked off fearing i could bother the dentellones, as it may remain wet in the joint for a long while. The real problem is that I simply use too much glue (and still am most of the times) so at least me really hhg is better for this part, same as I think fish blows away hide for the FB, bridge and back. |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fish glue and tentalones |
I agree that fish is harder to clean up than HHG. I'm like Alex - wiped off as best I can as I go and then sand the next day. I wouldn't know when the point in time would be that you could come back and lift off the gelled mass like you can with HHG. Tentalone glue up with fish glue is done - seemed to go OK. I thought my individual blocks were fairly uniform, but glued in they look really random, and I think not very pretty. This is the first time I've done it this way. As I was going along, I thought about using standard kerfed lining strips as a source for individual blocks (so they would all be the same size), and then I thought why not just glue in short strips of kerfed lining rather than individual blocks? The only reason not to that I can think of is that there would possibly be a problem of springback, so that the strips would not stay in whatever curve you pressed them into, so that this would require some sort of clamping or longer holding to get a decent joint. Any other potential problems you see? (edit: This problem could be countered somewhat by pre-bending the lining strips to the right shape and then breaking them down as needed.) |
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| Author: | Robbie O'Brien [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fish glue and tentalones |
David, That is some nice looking maple. I would love seeing pics when you are finished. |
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| Author: | douglas ingram [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fish glue and tentalones |
Jim Kirby wrote: Tentalone glue up with fish glue is done - seemed to go OK. I thought my individual blocks were fairly uniform, but glued in they look really random, and I think not very pretty. This is the first time I've done it this way. As I was going along, I thought about using standard kerfed lining strips as a source for individual blocks (so they would all be the same size), and then I thought why not just glue in short strips of kerfed lining rather than individual blocks? The only reason not to that I can think of is that there would possibly be a problem of springback, so that the strips would not stay in whatever curve you pressed them into, so that this would require some sort of clamping or longer holding to get a decent joint. Any other potential problems you see? (edit: This problem could be countered somewhat by pre-bending the lining strips to the right shape and then breaking them down as needed.) Jim, you're never really going to look at them again, are you? I'm all for a beautifully made guitar, and I love admiring mine even as they lounge about on their hangers, but I don't go sticking my mirror inside and sigh in admiration of beautifully uniform dentellones. Maybe I should? That might elevate me to a whole higher level of guitar aficionado. I wouldn't use sections of kerfed lining for this. I think that it would introduce a level of complication that cancels out any advantage that it might offer. I wet my kerfed lining and bend it in place, allowing it to dry before gluing. This ensures that the lining does not break and it does pre-shape the lining. There is some springback, but it holds the shape reasonably well. Still, gluing in all the little dentellones actually offers some advantage to me that makes me want to continue doing it that way. For example, I find it much easier to fit the dentellones to the tail block, harmonic bars, etc. than it is to try and fit continuous linings. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fish glue and tentalones |
Ervin Somogyi uses little short sections of kerfed lining in his glue-ups, vs the tentellone/dentellone. |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fish glue and tentalones |
Doug, Nope, I'll never see them again (I hope!  ), but I don't want to show you a picture of them either!Thanks Waddy, now I remember that. |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fish glue and tentalones |
A couple of observations here, for me, because I'm using the domed construction with the "fall off", the top to side join below the lower harmonic bar gets individually beveled dentellones (I just swipe them on a piece of sandpaper to put a greater than 90 degree angle on them). Thus kerfing or short sections of the same wouldn't work as effectively. The technique of "spearing" these allows me to apply the glue and place them fairly precisely. I counted almost 200 of these on my current guitar so yes, it's pretty time consuming but a very important part of the construction to get right I suspect. Thanks Robbie, that maple is a special purchase that my client made from Germany for this project: http://picasaweb.google.com/eurospruce/ ... eOldStock# Attachment: Laplante#96Assembled.jpg Attachment: Laplante#96Assembled2.jpg
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