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| Author: | valleyofelah [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | fretting frustration |
So, I've been fretting my 5th for what seems like forever, and I just keep running into the same problem on this one. On a few of the slots I keep having the ends pull up. I start tapping them in, one side is down, the middle goes in fine, but one I get to the other side, I tap it and the other side comes back up. I've tried crimping the fret tangs, I've tried cutting new frets to install, but it just keeps happening. I also can't get ca to hold it down. What can I do? |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
Tap in the ends first, then the middle, maybe. That's what I do when I'm tapping in frets. Are you sure the slots are deep enough? Are the slots the right width for the fret wire. If too wide, the tangs wont grab. I now press most of my frets, and it saves me a lot of grief. |
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| Author: | Mike Baker [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
First of all, you might try bending them to a little tighter radius before installing. For the ends that don't want to stay down, I'd hit them with some super glue and clamp them down till dry. |
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| Author: | Kent Chasson [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
The slots might be a bit too worn at this point but what I do is over bend the curve a bit, seat the ends, then work back toward the middle. Very light taps and lots of them. That has the effect of pushing the barbs sideways a bit at the ends of the frets and it helps keep them seated. You my need to get wire with a bigger tang at this point though. |
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| Author: | Kent Chasson [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
Now that's service. Three posts at the same time saying mostly the same thing. One of us must be right! |
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| Author: | valleyofelah [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
Wow, no kidding. Thanks for the quick responses. I do overbend the frets prior, which I thought would be enough. I'll try doing both ends first and see if that works. Thanks again. |
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| Author: | Mike Lindstrom [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
Don't overlook Waddy's comment about the slot being deep enough. It sure sounds like you might have something in there they're rocking on. I'd clean them out and double check the depth before I wore them more with more frets. Mike |
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| Author: | valleyofelah [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
Thanks again. I got them to stay down this time. Just as a precaution after I got them down I put some thin ca in there to hopefully cure and hold them even better. |
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| Author: | Sondre [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
I think it is important to make sure the back of the neck is supported with something heavy to keep the neck from vibrating when you tap. The vibrations will tend to squeeze out the fret, preventing it from seating properly. If there is a loud 'BOING' with sustain to it, you need more support. The taps should feel solid and sound muted. I use a heavy vice as backup and a thin piece of leather between it and the neck for protection. Make sure there is always support directly behind the fret that is tapped. Use a light hammer and many light taps. |
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| Author: | Mike Baker [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
I hate to contradict more learned folk, and my experience is with fretting only one neck, but in my limited experience, the advice for light and plentiful taps led me into trouble early. Doing it that way, especially when seating the ends of the frets, led to the exact problem the OP mentions. I couldn't get the fret ends to stay down. You don't need to hit them like you're trying to kill 'em, but I found that a nice, firm, strong tap with just enough force to seat the fret firmly on the first strike did the job for me. It takes a while to get a feel for it, but once you do, they go in real fast and real solid for me like this. I started with the ends, then went back to the middle, hammering them in with a few firm taps toward the edges of the board. Took literally a couple of seconds per fret. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
I have a few questions , what is the slot width on the fretboard and what is the width of the fret tang. Also , are you using water or glue as a lubricant ? I am in the light tippy tappy school. Too hard a hit may cause crushing and chasing or stretching of the fret wire. I also use glue . http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... tting&aq=f check out this video , it may help |
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| Author: | Stuart Gort [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
For what it's worth. If you take straight fret wire made of the standard 18% nickle/silver and bend around a radius of 4.5", it will spring back to a little under a 10" radius. I did a series of experiments to determine that 4.5" radius in order to make a simple fret bending die. I believe that as long as one stays in the general range of guitar fretboards that a ratio of 1:2 will produce a pretty good result. For instance; if your fretboard has a 12" radius, then bending your wire around a 6" radius will result in the wire springing back to about a 12" radius. With this in mind one can create a simple die from hardwood to bend frets accurately. The trick is to be able to cut a groove to retain the fret tang to keep the fret straight while it's being bent, which can probably be done with imagination and a miter box. The important thing to remember is that high pressure is not required. The fret needs only see an even 6" radius and it will spring back to 12". So a male and female set of matching radii made from hardwood (Brazilian Teak would be great) would certainly work. This 1:2 ratio won't apply to stainless steel frets....or it may apply but I haven't tried it. |
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| Author: | wolfsearcher [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
Seems to me that mabye everyone could be using a different saw to cut the slots I appoligise if this hijaks the thread but hand saws could be a suitable subject to bring up aswell did that thread about your favourate fret slotting saw ever decide on a winner ? |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
Another fan of pressing here, although I've only done one so I've never tried hammering. You don't need one of those mega-expensive Stewmac things to press. If you use a radius block to shape the fingerboard, you can also use it as a pressing caul. It does get dented up, so I just use about 1cm of one end of it as the pressing area, as it's outside the sandpaper anyway. Just take a cam clamp (I put an extra layer of cork on the lower jaw just to be sure not to dent the back of the neck) and squeeze the radius block onto the fret. Sometimes takes a couple tries shimmying the clamp back and forth, but they usually go in pretty easily. Then if there are still small gaps anywhere, you can take a small square block of wood and jam at it until it sits flush. The 2 or 3 frets around the heel are a pain, but I managed to get them in. You could always hammer them as well. |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
Well, I guess you got it covered. When I did frets, what I did was do a test cut on the fretboard material I was using, because I noticed ebony and rosewood, or whatever, needed a different slot, using the same fret-wire. Get that right, and you'll be ok. I would use an off the shelf back saw, and sandwich it with hardwood, and pound the set of that saw till it was right. No c.a. required. My biggest problem with fretting was, it really hurt my fingers. |
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| Author: | Jody [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
I tap mine and glue them with super glue, I would reccomend using a natural wax to coat the fingerboard , after tapping and before glueing ,to facilitate clean up of the glue afterward... Jody |
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| Author: | Bob Garrish [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
The first time I ever tried fretting a guitar (my first, which I refretted before finishing it) I used one of the 'fretting hammers' from lutherie suppliers. It was a disaster. I can fret an instrument with one if the only other choice is using my elbow, but I feel they're the wrong tool for the job. I'm a big advocate of a heavy hammer and a light touch. I use a claw hammer with a polished face. You need to be very gentle and let the weight of the hammer do all the work. A chunk of 1.25" or 1.5" brass about 3-4" long, held like a bingo dabber, would make a great fret hammer. As Todd says, it's about 5-6 taps total from end to end, though I like to seat both ends then finish up with 3-4 taps on the center section. |
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| Author: | guitarjtb [ Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
Get the radius right on the fret wire. The tool for putting the radius in the fret wire is some of the best money I have spent. I tried hand bending the fret wire. There is no comparison. Slightly bevel the top of your slot with your 3-sided file. Just one or 2 strokes on each slot is enough. Make sure there are no minute wood fragments on the edges of the slot that would keep the fret from seating. Make sure the slot it cleaned out. Sounds simple, but you usually can't just vac it out. Use the tip of your razor saw if you don't have a special tool for this. Have something heavy supporting the neck. I use 2 bags of lead shot that is used for reloading shotgun shells. Stack them and lay the neck over them. Firm support is very important. If the neck or fretboard is not on something solid, everything will bounce and the frets are very difficult to get all the way in. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
DennisK wrote: Another fan of pressing here, although I've only done one so I've never tried hammering. You don't need one of those mega-expensive Stewmac things to press. If you use a radius block to shape the fingerboard, you can also use it as a pressing caul. It does get dented up, so I just use about 1cm of one end of it as the pressing area, as it's outside the sandpaper anyway. Just take a cam clamp (I put an extra layer of cork on the lower jaw just to be sure not to dent the back of the neck) and squeeze the radius block onto the fret. Sometimes takes a couple tries shimmying the clamp back and forth, but they usually go in pretty easily. Then if there are still small gaps anywhere, you can take a small square block of wood and jam at it until it sits flush. The 2 or 3 frets around the heel are a pain, but I managed to get them in. You could always hammer them as well. Dennis, I wonder if a beer can lining would help with the denting? ---- FWIW I like to use Titebond on my frets to fill in any gaps. I back the neck up with a bag of kitty litter and hit the frets in firm and on the hard side with a dead blow hammer with nylon tips. The hammer really sets them nicely. |
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| Author: | npalen [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
How about using the rolled lip on the beer can for a fret? |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
I'll say it again, "Get the Dan Erlewine Fretting Series DVD's" and after watching them you should be able to figure it out. They are a must have, worth every penny. |
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| Author: | nickton [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
Isn't there some kind of tool to re adjust tang barbs or make new ones? |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: fretting frustration |
Stew Mac. |
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