No way, Alain!!!
That must be very stressful.
Top and back?
![[clap]](./images/smilies/smiley32.gif "adulations")
I've heard of people caring about the visual insides of a guitar.
To a point, I can see it,
I just don't get it though.
More important is how it sounds and plays.
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| Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=29975 |
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| Author: | PeterDeWitt [ Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
I am progressing nicely recently on my first build. Currently I am working towards closing the box. Most seem to glue the top plate to the sides first and then say be careful about squeeze-out when gluing the back on next. Does anyone glue the top on second? Reasoning? Thanks! Peter |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
I guess it depends on if you care how it looks through the soundhole. Cleaner look with the back first. Personally, I don't mind seeing a little squeeze-out. Vizually yuck. At least you know it's glued properly. |
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| Author: | PeterDeWitt [ Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
Thanks, Alan. I think part of my question also therefore is what is the benefit of gluing the top first. I assume it is to be able to modify the braces one last time. How much do you all modify the top braces once glued to the rims? Is that helpful? Thanks, Peter |
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| Author: | Kent Chasson [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
The main benefit of gluing the top first is getting a chance to do some voicing after it's on the rims. If you do, remember to notch the linings for your back braces before gluing the top on. It's a lot easier to mark them that way. |
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| Author: | Haans [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
I used to glue the top on first, but I have not been taking the assembly out of the mould until the whole box is together. Instead I fashioned some screw downs to clamp the top onto the mould. I've done my final brace shaping that way lately. Seems to work about the same... |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
I always do the top first, I pretty much have to for the method I use in building a classical guitar to get the neck angle right. In either case I like the top on first because I rope the back on and the body is secured to the solera with a clamp through the sound hole. I don't recon it matters either way though as long as it jives with your building method. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
+1 for back first. Cleaner look. |
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| Author: | PeterDeWitt [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
Thanks everyone for the thoughts so far. It seems like it is a balance between getting to do a final voicing of the top once on the rims or having a cleaner look. Peter |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
Back first and final voice with the strings on . |
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| Author: | Alain Moisan [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
I don't voice my tops and I don't mind a little glue squeeze out. Thus I glue both at the same time! |
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| Author: | Rick Davis [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
Top first but not to fiddle with the braces. It's so I can clean the squeeze out. Then put the back on its dish, clamp body onto it and clean squeeze out through the soundhole. |
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| Author: | muthrs [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
I'm with Rick on this one. I don't understand the reasoning that it's a choice between cleaner and voicing. I say cleaner and voicing with the top first. I want the entire inside of my guitar to be clean whether you can see it or not. With the back on first, it would be extremely difficult to clean any squeezeout that might occur when gluing the top on. With the top on first, you can get squeezeout on the back through the soundhole. Having said that, I use reverse kerf linings and fish glue and almost never get any squeezeout. You can see exactly how much glue to put on and any excess with go into the kerf, hidden behind the webbing of the reverse kerf lining. For this reason if I get squeezeout, it is usually around the headblock and is easily cleaned up through the soundhole. |
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| Author: | woody b [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
muthrs wrote: I'm with Rick on this one. I don't understand the reasoning that it's a choice between cleaner and voicing. I say cleaner and voicing with the top first. I want the entire inside of my guitar to be clean whether you can see it or not. With the back on first, it would be extremely difficult to clean any squeezeout that might occur when gluing the top on. With the top on first, you can get squeezeout on the back through the soundhole.................................................................................................. People look inside guitars with mirrors, and even video bore scopes. I glue the top first, to tweak the bracing, as well as clean up. I can clean the back through the sound hole. |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
No way, Alain!!! That must be very stressful. Top and back? I've heard of people caring about the visual insides of a guitar. To a point, I can see it, I just don't get it though. More important is how it sounds and plays.
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| Author: | truckjohn [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
alan stassforth wrote: No way, Alain!!! I've heard of people caring about the visual insides of a guitar. To a point, I can see it, I just don't get it though. More important is how it sounds and plays. People are crazy....  Their favorite instrument in the whole world is a beat up 1930's guitar with saw marks on the braces and glue gobs all over the innerds.... and they speak about how the only things that matter are the sound and feel and tone.... and speak of Mojo and That Sound and the Way They Were Built Back in the Day! But they see a speck of lint sticking to a glue joint on the top looking through a mirror and they reject the hand made guitar as if it was made by a kid banging rocks on a 2x4 drug out of a construction dumpster..... But back to the OP.... I put the top on first -- because I just can't leave well enough alone.. Thanks John |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
I went by Dream Guitars last week, and Paul Heumiller was telling me that he could send a $20,000 guitar to some guy, and he would call and tell him how great the guitar looked and sounded, then he would say, "But, there's this glue inside!" Point being he'd been inside the guitar with a mirror and a light looking for glue squeezeout. |
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| Author: | Miketobey [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
Reminds me of the great woodworking debate that always starts a small philosophical skirmish-dovetail cutting---pins or tails first. On the two I have recently worked on (that statement alone is a sad joke-I'm the pokey little puppy on these-embarassing) I braced the back first and so it went on first since the sides were radiused,blocks shaped and in the molds. At that point if I have properly braced and lined, notched for the back braces properly so they don't tweak the back fit, and glued on the back plate, the 3/4 box should be stable in shape and I can work it outside the mold if desired. In spite of having a great go-bar deck from John, I happily use a motherlode of spool clamps with my outside molds drilled for them. Once I have applied the glue, I "throw" a couple of bags of lead shot(total 50 pounds) on the back while I go around tightening the spools. Most of my "guitar size" spools have very handy jig knobs on them so I can really get around the guitar a couple of times to draw up and even out-Titebond Original is my friend. But, John D. exposed me to fish glue and it is becoming a better friend. I just can't quite get that "sterile" interior that many of you have mastered. So I'm not a worthy contestant in the light and mirror inspection for tiny glue balloons or fillets. And I don't smooth my brace wood to near polished surface. As I always say, "I'm a hack!" Now I can say--"First the back,so I am a hack." "My guitars aren't sterile-play at your peril!" |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
I like a clean interior but I am certainly not OCP about it. As long as the braces fit perfect into the linings then I'm cool with a little squeeze out. I've gotten pretty good at knowing how much glue to use and typically there isn't much anyway. My first guitar has gobs of glue all over it, still sounds great though 
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| Author: | PeterDeWitt [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
Thanks everyone, keep it coming. Peter |
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| Author: | PeterDeWitt [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
Thanks everyone, keep it coming. Peter |
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| Author: | Alain Moisan [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
Filippo Morelli wrote: I'm not railing on cleaning glue squeeze out. My guitars are rather clean in that regard. I just believe it is majoring in the minors. Ditto. |
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| Author: | Markus Schmid [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
WaddyThomson wrote: I went by Dream Guitars last week, and Paul Heumiller was telling me that he could send a $20,000 guitar to some guy, and he would call and tell him how great the guitar looked and sounded, then he would say, "But, there's this glue inside!" Point being he'd been inside the guitar with a mirror and a light looking for glue squeezeout.  I'd bet that the same guy would pay big bucks for a glob of glue with an original Torres guitar "attached to it".  This is the top of Torres' SE83: Attachment: Torres_SE83-Romanillos_ISBN_0-933224-93-1_p119-2010_A80_8716.jpg Right over the HHGGs (Hot Hide Glue Globs) there is one of the back braces which Torres glued to the rim before closing the box by putting the back on. When applying HHG to the rim and braces, some glue must have been fallen off Torre's glue brush. As Torres built with the solera, the back braces added quite a bit of rigidness to the box in order the back could be put on by the rope-method without worrying the whole thing would deform in some way when applying pressure. |
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| Author: | dberkowitz [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
Top first to voice, then the back. I don't use reverse kerfing and yes, occasionally I have a little squeeze out visible. Better that than not enough glue. If some schmuck doesn't want my guitar because there are a few beads of glue visible, or a couple of chisel spikes in the top, instead of listening to the dang thing, then I'll be glad to sell it to someone else. Years ago when I was apprenticing in repair at a shop in Pittsburgh, we had a customer who'd bought one of the Ibanez S Series thinbodied electrics (Floyd Rose tailpiece, two humbuckers and a center single coil). The client complained that the guitar wouldn't stay in tune. We worked on it, set it up and he wasn't satisfied. So we called Ibanez. Ibanez had us send it to them. Upon receiving it, they said there wasn't anything wrong with it. We agreed. So it came back. The customer wasn't satisfied. The customer's technique was to bend the strings all the way across the fingerboard (hence it going out of tune). We called Ibanez, who said, give them their money back. We don't want them having one of our guitars. Great lesson in customer service. |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
I will say this, since coming to this forum, I do more sanding and clean up on the inside. Thanks all! The bar has been raised. A little. |
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| Author: | alan stassforth [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Closing the Box: Glue the Top or Back First? |
I will say this, since coming to this forum, I do more sanding and clean up on the inside. Thanks all! The bar has been raised. A little. |
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