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Universal Binding Machine
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=29890		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Gregg C [ Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Universal Binding Machine
Hi guys,
I'm looking into purchasing a Universal Binding Machine,
Stew Mac has one
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Speci ... es#details

LMI has one
http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproduc ... ng+Machine

Anyone have any thoughts on which one to buy ??
Is one built better / stronger than the other ??

Gregg
Author:  bluescreek [ Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... chine&aq=f here is a video that helps show how the different binders work. They all work but find the one that fits your needs the best
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
I have done 6 guitars so far with the Stew-mac True channel and have no complaints. I hang the whole thing on the wall when not in use so I takes very little space. At the time I needed a jig as I had not had the kind of results I wanted using the dremel and did not have the time to build one so it was the best alternative at the time. No regrets.

Fred
Author:  Gregg C [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
Thanks John, I really like the one your using.
Author:  Glenn LaSalle [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
Gregg C wrote:
Hi guys,
I'm looking into purchasing a Universal Binding Machine,
Stew Mac has one
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Speci ... es#details

LMI has one
http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproduc ... ng+Machine

Anyone have any thoughts on which one to buy ??
Is one built better / stronger than the other ??

Gregg

I bought mine from John. I am making my first couple of guitars, and used it on those. I can not be more happy. What is even better is the support you get from John.

I can not be more happy with my purchase from John - I would recommend giving John Hall a call.

Glenn
Author:  Gregg C [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
Glenn,
I bought my bender from John, almost a $600 purchase...Worth...every...penny !! John was fantastic, sent out practice wood for me along with email support for instruction. I couldnt have done it without him !!
After my practice bends I bent 5 sets without incident !! Once again thanks to John !!
I am leaning toward Johns binding machine, I think it will be another very good purchase.

Gregg
Author:  SteveSmith [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
I built one just based on the pictures on the LMI website. You can build one if you are so inclined. Mine works very will and wasn't all that hard to build. Cost me about $50 for the hardware. edit: that way I had money for the bit/bearings set.
Attachment:
BindingJig.JPG

Attachment:
BindingJigMtPlate.JPG
Author:  Mark Fogleman [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
Has anyone figured out a way to keep the router/bit/bearing and guitar sides horizontal like Taylor does? That just makes more sense to me but I'm totally new to this.
https://www.taylorguitars.com/video/factory-fridays/default.aspx?edition=4&title=4%3A+Binding+Part+1
Author:  Gregg C [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
Tarhead,
Watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=OBr ... Y04tlrEuEg
Author:  Mark Fogleman [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
Gregg C wrote:
Tarhead,
Watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=OBr ... Y04tlrEuEg


Thanks!
I've seen it and all the others too. That's why I was asking. No one I've seen so far other than Bob Taylor uses a horizontal mounted router and spins the guitar body around the mortising bit on its side on a bearing assembly. I was just wondering if there were more like Bob's. Maybe there's a reason I'm not seeing it being used. Just seems like it would be easier and cheaper and less space occupying than the others.
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
Martin does it this way also, I think that there is more operator skill required to do this operation than using the sled type or the moving arm type. These two styles of cutting jigs with a bearing set like LMI or Stew-mac are as idiot proof as one can get for small shop usage.

Fred
Author:  Mark Fogleman [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
Fred Tellier wrote:
Martin does it this way also, I think that there is more operator skill required to do this operation than using the sled type or the moving arm type. These two styles of cutting jigs with a bearing set like LMI or Stew-mac are as idiot proof as one can get for small shop usage.

Fred

Thanks Fred!
It's people like me who deepen the Idiot Pool! laughing6-hehe Sitting here thinking about it I would probably like to see what I'm doing with the router on top of the guitar rather than the guitar on top of the bit. Oh well, the guy at Taylor made it look soooo easy.
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
I know what you mean, [:Y:] I need to simplify most operations or things can go south way too fast. oops_sign

Fred
Author:  the Padma [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
Probably could build the sucker for a few bucks. Ain't all that hard and lots of plans out there.

Me, me just chuck up the rabbiting built and go at her hand held and true them up by hand. Got no choice really as the ribs are convexed and the top and back plate edges are compound curves. Then there is Jose Romanillos, he still cuts the rabbits by hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8iZBACWSDQ


blessings
duh Padma
Author:  Mark Fogleman [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
SteveSmith wrote:
I built one just based on the pictures on the LMI website. You can build one if you are so inclined. Mine works very will and wasn't all that hard to build. Cost me about $50 for the hardware. edit: that way I had money for the bit/bearings set.
Attachment:
BindingJig.JPG

Attachment:
BindingJigMtPlate.JPG


Hey Steve,
That turned out nice!
What did you use for the doughnut?
Author:  SteveSmith [ Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
Tarhead wrote:
SteveSmith wrote:
I built one just based on the pictures on the LMI website. You can build one if you are so inclined. Mine works very will and wasn't all that hard to build. Cost me about $50 for the hardware. edit: that way I had money for the bit/bearings set.
Attachment:
BindingJig.JPG

Attachment:
BindingJigMtPlate.JPG


Hey Steve,
That turned out nice!
What did you use for the doughnut?


Thanks, I am pretty happy with it.

The donut is delrin. I had some laying around and I have a small lathe so it was easy for me to make. I think John Hall might sell them if you don't have the equipment to make one.
Author:  Gregg C [ Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
Hey guys I decided on the Fleishman binding machine, I ordered it from John yesterday.
Last month I purchased a DEWALT D26670 from Amazon, I should have a nice setup.
I'm currently building 5 guitars, once I get my binding machine it will get a bit of a work out one afternoon.
Thanks for all the help guys !!
Author:  Tai Fu [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
I don't understand why people spend 300+ dollars on a simple binding machine, as if other steps in the construction/repair of a guitar don't cost an assload of money... (like a good bandsaw for example).

I don't know if American laminate trimmers comes with this (and it's really all you need for acoustic guitars... routers are good for heavy cuts like dovetail heel and electric guitars, but in my opinion way too heavy to be used on acoustics), but mines comes with a jig that goes to the side of the base that has a rotating bearing which goes over a regular straight bit, allowing you to make ledged cuts (and even make lap joints on cabinets) without further investments other than a decent straight bit. There are another laminate trimmer sold in Taiwan that comes with a base that allows angle adjustments (and since all laminate trimmers in Taiwan have the same body diameter, they are interchangeable) which takes care of the pesky angled guitar backs. For carved top electric body I will most likely cut the binding ledge before carving the top to simplify things.

I am sure similar setup exists for laminate trimmer in the US market... why spend so much on a special router bit from Stewie Mac with a set of bearings when you can get a decent straight bit and use the binding attachment that comes with most routers? Yes you have to be careful so that you don't cut deeper than you should but I think that can always be worked around.

I just can't justify a "True Channel" binding machine. Having to set up the jig and make sure everything is level takes more time than using a router free hand and being careful not to angle the router more than 90 degrees from the side.

By the way I heard someone made a handle for laminate trimmers (for the purpose of cutting binding channels, it covers the bit so only the exposed part does the cutting) that registers off of a guitar side rather than the top and back, and it can be adjusted for different depth...
Author:  bluescreek [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
If you use a number of binding patterns and on steel strings , and the back has a radius and a taper . That makes using a router very difficult as you need something to hold the bit parallel to the bodis sides. If you don't you have a difficult time getting a clean channel that will not pinch out the binding . The binding bearings are a positive fit to the choice of the channel depth. With adjustable bearing guides at best you are guessing as you have to assure a good tangent feed to the bit.
Binding is a part of fit and finish and once you start making good sounding guitars you need them to look good to be marketable. Yes there are other ways to do this but these jigs are very efficient and can take a long job to do down to a few minutes . I haven't see anyone free hand them yet that looked perfect . This is one of the tasks that need some sort of jig to do well.
Author:  Gregg C [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
I look at it like this,
I work a 40 hour week at my day job (UPS Aircraft mechanic) and then build custom homes the second half of my day, my time is precious and limited. I am equipping myself and my shop to perform every step / function of building guitars with the best most covenant tool / jigs I can find. Thanks to this forum along with guys like John, Hesh and Robbie Ive learned about these things and have found them to be indispensable.
Tai Fu,
Let me give you an example,
This binding machine was $330 with shipping, add in the router = $400...this is a one time purchase !!
As an amature building 4-6 guitars a year this thing will last forever!! IMO for $400 I now have the best possible, most convient, easiest to use and time saving tool for the job. Thats whats important to me.
Same thing with my side bender (Complete Heating Blanket Bending Machine from John)
an expensive tool no doubt, my buddy bends sides with a wood form and a 250w light bulb, I see him frustrated, spending lots of time and not even getting a good bend. I didnt want that so I saved my money and once again I now have a one time purchase that will last.
Anyway you get the idea,
These tools (for me) make building fun, less frustrating and dont forget its always fun to buy cool tools and gadgets !!
Heck, here in the USA they even did an entire sit-com on it !!

Once again, Thanks for all the help guys !!

Gregg
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
The most important thing is, accuracy and repeatability, I hate correcting mistakes. I did the hand methods on the 1st 2 guitars and managed to get a decent but not great result with 3X the time, energy and frustration. I have lots of time but still hate wasting it, I know if I have .080 binding I put the bearing for this size on the cutter, set the depth and cut, the binding will fit and the task is complete. One can not have too many of the right tools and jigs, that is if we can build or afford to purchase them. I love wood, tools, gadgets and guitars and have the means to get them its a good life.

Fred
Author:  Gregg C [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
Ditto !!
Author:  Gregg C [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
Hey Guys,
I used my new binding machine today, Love it !!
It's such a pleasure using the correct tools / jigs for the job.
This thing is a piece of cake !!
Image
Gregg
Author:  alan stassforth [ Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
I hate you Gregg!
Just kidding.
I need one of those,
no mullah right now.
Gotta do a maple binding on maple,
and every glue line's gonna show.
By hand.
If I can pull that off, I be happy.
Author:  Alan [ Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Universal Binding Machine
alan stassforth wrote:
I hate you Gregg!
Just kidding.
I need one of those,
no mullah right now.
Gotta do a maple binding on maple,
and every glue line's gonna show.
By hand.
If I can pull that off, I be happy.



Alan....The materials aren't that expensive for the Williams style machine and the Ribbecke style is even less expensive (set of slides and a little plywood). Of course you would need a cutter and bearings. StewMac and LMI make good sets, but perhaps a little experimentation with other bits and bearing combinations, or other modifications to the jig to use standard bits could provide a workable solution. Bottom line is that a good binding machine makes the job much easier and quicker and it doesn't have to be a big dollar investment.
I have both the Williams style and Ribbecke style machines, but use the Ribbecke style most since it takes less space. Once I get the shop cleaned up a little so I have more space, I may use the Williams style machine a little more. The only concern I have heard from anyone on the Ribbecke style is that some are not comfortable with moving the guitar body, so they prefer moving the "crane" of the Williams style over the top of the body. That's not an issue for me, but either style will do a good job.
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