If anyone on Long Island is interested in taking in an intern, feel free to contact me lol.
My number one and number 2 in progress.
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| Student Internships - Your Experiences, Please http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=29851 |
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| Author: | oval soundhole [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Student Internships - Your Experiences, Please |
I have never been this situation, but I'm 14 and would love to have an opportunity like that. It's fun to figure out everything on my own and was a good way to build my first two guitars, but I would love to have some one help and show me how to build. |
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| Author: | PeterDeWitt [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Student Internships - Your Experiences, Please |
Hey Todd, That sounds like a really neat opportunity! I am a high school science teacher that facilitates a research course where we pair students with industry professionals to complete a 100-150 hour research project with the mentor. My role in that is to set up the partnerships and oversee the student work and mentor relationship. I have found the mentor/apprentice relationship (when well executed) to usually be one of (if not the best) experience that students have in high school. Few thoughts: I have found the basic key to be that a teacher or parent is overseeing the mentorship. What I mean by that is that someone who has history with the student, and to whom the student is accountable is involved in the partnership so that the mentor is not left feeling like they have to be the enforcer at all. In my eyes, the mentor's role is to provide a facility and content expertise. The parent or teacher the oversight, and the student the work. The only other thing I would say is that we usually start the students with their internships after 2/3 of year in a rigorous program - they have to prove themselves a bit before the internship starts. It is not about being the best student, more about serious, dedicated, committed, means business, willing to listen and work hard. Those sorts of things. So, is there someone who could be the logical overseer of the student - in terms of holding them meaningfully accountable for their quality of work and professionalism with you? Secondly, do you know they are committed? If not, is there some sort of background research assignment or something you could ask them to complete that would show their commitment-level up front? Hope some of this helps! Peter |
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| Author: | Kent Chasson [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Student Internships - Your Experiences, Please |
I did something very similar with a high school senior last year. The hardest issue for me was deciding how much to help at every step. It was often difficult to know whether to prioritize his participation in the process or the outcome. I tended to err on the side of getting a good outcome and I think that was a good approach. I like what Peter said about having good support from a school or parent but I didn't get that and it worked out fine. I'm sure it depends on the individual student. I will ask for more support if I do it again. I found it a good experience. I've also been approached by a number of people who would like to apprentice and this was a good opportunity to get some clarity on the reality of that. Good luck. |
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| Author: | Stephen Boone [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Student Internships - Your Experiences, Please |
I had a young man of 19 come to the shop and build a guitar with me over a two week period. He was great! He is in college now and has to squeeze in the time but he is working on his second with me. I am sure that it depends on the individual student but it has been a good experience. I found that showing another what to do and how to do it also helps my own understanding of the process. I also try to make time available for him because I sure wish that I had had such an opportunity at that age. It is nice to mentor to someone who is there for the right reasons and having fun. |
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| Author: | Ti-Roux [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Student Internships - Your Experiences, Please |
I'm in a class of 10 students, and I see people from 17 to over 30. I'm 21, by the way. I can say the younger one have problems with auto-discipline and serious work. Some of them have good potential but don't take it seriously. Last year we 18, 8 have dropped, 7 of them were 17 or 18... but at young age, you're discovering, it's okay to try and see you don't like it. I'd say let him a try. And don't do everything for him. Let him do his mistakes, that's just the way. Also, let him do his teenager trips (Purpleheart FB with maple headstock and cocobolo neck). I know that because i'm still young, and my teacher can tell me something 5 times, but I'll do it wrong way untill I realize my mistake. Hope it helps! Francis |
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| Author: | RQuinn [ Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Student Internships - Your Experiences, Please |
Todd Stock wrote: Thanks, guys - good feedback. Only one new student (Jeff)...Rachel is just using the shop until her's is fully set up and you (Chris V.) are in the same boat. Kickin' us out? My parents have been trying that for years... I think it could go either way. I managed people from 18 and up at GC, the younger ones had a much harder time staying focused and completing tasks. A few of them were great. It's a learning experience for both of you, and I think Peter had some really good suggestions about oversight from another adult. |
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| Author: | truckjohn [ Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Student Internships - Your Experiences, Please |
I guess I would have to ask this.... Are you doing an Internship or are you hosting a kid to build a guitar with you? The reason is that an Internship is more like an apprenticeship -- the idea is to get them acquainted with the work and start to become proficient in certain shop tasks.... but the emphasis is on becoming proficient in some aspect of the work.... like say carving necks or levelling out and buffing finishes or inlay or fretting or whatever.... If you are hosting a kid to build a guitar with you -- that's great... and he might get an idea of what building a guitar is like..... but likely won't become really proficient in anything at the shop..... Either way is valid, and likely helpful to the kid.... But.. Be honest with yourself and him about what the "Internship" really is.... I would put together a game plan ahead of time... Some sort of highly structured plan with lots of projects with definite beginnings and ends, target dates, etc.... Younger people typically need that sort of structure -- as no one has ever taught them to break down tasks into simpler tasks, make definite starts and finishes, etc.... You may want to come up with some set of "Worker Bee" tasks for the first few weeks -- to get a sense of whether he is really ready and willing to "work" or not..... A whole bunch of people see the amount of discipline and work it takes and loose interest -- and leave you high and dry.... And.. you may want to check up on the workman's comp insurance aspect -- you may be required to cover him... just in case something happens.... Thanks John |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Student Internships - Your Experiences, Please |
How about requiring the student to buy a kit. Either serviced or unserviced. Then they (i.e. the parents) will have a strong financial incentive to see a finished product and the kid will still have a great experience. |
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| Author: | Ken Mitchell [ Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Student Internships - Your Experiences, Please |
Hi Todd, This is an interesting topic to many of us. I wish you the best on your adventure! I've been fortunate in that the high school where I work encourages the staff to 'pursue our passions', and integrate them into the curriculum. While I've only built a dozen or so guitars, I've been working with students at our school, in various configurations, on guitar construction. To date, our record is: 1 group/school build completed (not a good idea; low commitment from some participants, high from others) 2 individual student guitars completed (highly motivated students) 2 guitars 'not yet' completed (one student, one other staff member; awaiting time and opportunity to complete) 1 bailed out, I'm finishing the guitar currently (this student was really just too young) From my experience, I would echo comments from others, namely, a lot will depend on the individual student; he/she will probably come in not really 'hearing' how many hours it takes, and how much attention to detail are required, and some may lose their initial motivation; you will be torn between when to let the student do the work him/herself, and risk making and having to correct mistakes (not always a bad thing, but slows down the process), and when to intervene/offer a helping hand; if you're working with more than 1 student at a time, it will feel like a juggling act; there's a lot to teach and learn when it comes to planning out the stages, and coordinating tool usage, materials, etc. All of the challenges aside, seeing the sheer joy of a young person playing and showing off a guitar he/she has build is quite rewarding, and makes it all woth it! I'm glad to see this thread, and hope others will offer further suggestions, as I'll be working with 4 more students again in the spring! All the best, |
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| Author: | oval soundhole [ Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Student Internships - Your Experiences, Please |
If anyone on Long Island is interested in taking in an intern, feel free to contact me lol. My number one and number 2 in progress.
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| Author: | Robert Renick [ Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Student Internships - Your Experiences, Please |
Thank for all the great perspectives, Peter, very helpful. I am teaching 10 middle school kids and 10 HS. Some of them are really great and interested, others not so much. Since I am working in a class room, I made very basic kits for kalimbas. They came out nicely. It was easy, got them ready to do something bigger. I have a pair of students who now who will embark on some cigar box guitars. In my short personal experience with these students, if they have a good attitude, they still need to practice with things. I think they also need some shorter accomplishments to either flush them out or give them some practice and confidence. It will also prepare them for the attention span demands a guitar requires. If you are going to use this to develop curriculum, you may consider some video cameras to review the process. Also in the development of the curriculum consider what tools will be used in the class, and how to share them. Rob |
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| Author: | cphanna [ Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Student Internships - Your Experiences, Please |
Yo, Todd, I don't know whether this will be much help to you, but maybe it'll be food for thought. In my view, there's a difference between teaching and mentoring. Many years ago, I taught in a commercial art program at a private college. I was a pretty good teacher. I had students who were all over the map in terms of pure talent and ability to learn. I made better commercial artists out of most of them. Much later, when I owned an advertising agency, that same college would cherry pick its best third and fourth year students and send them to me for internships. WOW! That was a revelation to me! Not only did I have the cream of the crop each semester, but I found out that I was a much better mentor than I was a teacher. So...going back to my philosophical view, I believe internships call for mentoring (not basic teaching) of talented, dedicated young subjects. If your situation calls for mentoring, and if you think you might be a good mentor, then I suspect you will find it richly rewarding. You don't have to accept interns who are half-hearted about the whole thing. You need a screening process of some sort. Sadly, I don't know how to advise you about the screening process. In my case, I talked to my former faculty colleagues, and the screening was done for me. Good luck with it. I'm sure there are monstrously talented kids out there who could benefit from your mentoring. The BEST part (if you can screen the right students) is that you will benefit from the experience even more than your kids. It will happen in ways you can't imagine. You will find yourself growing. You will discover that you are learning things from those talented kids. It will "blind side" you and amaze you. If you can get the right kids, I can almost guarantee that. Just my personal experience in my chosen profession. I think it would apply to luthiery, too. |
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| Author: | tlguitars [ Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Student Internships - Your Experiences, Please |
Hey Todd, I've had 6 students build guitars with me that ranged from ages 14-18. And they all worked out great. Skip the kit, no offense Terry (my fellow Alexandria'n), kids that range want to "build it all" (attitude and actual ability be damned) and bending sides is the best part for most of them. The thing to do is lay out the expectations for the week to week. Treat it like a class that will result with a cool guitar and they will go at it with full force. Commitment: Starts from the initial meet. Making sure their "lets do an internship" translates into follow through. They have to know that you take your work seriously and as such that no matter their dreams of building their own guitar, it takes a lot of work and effort, with mistakes and patients to follow. Parents: Make them sign a liability (and attitude) waiver. Show that your not a "do it yourself, hippie type" but a serious professional teacher who cares about the work as much as the student. Your shop is your shop and their child is your student. A real builder outside of a school setting equals "college level education" for their child which ='s they take it more seriously; so their child takes it more seriously. Do a "Conference" before you start (with parents and student), go through the waiver and the difficulties of the build process. What tools and steps they can and can't do, what's expected of the student in weekly work and attitude, and lay it all out. (Put some fear in the student and some faith for your abilities in the parents.  ) The most important thing is to always keep it personal for the student, technique and tradition be damned. What I mean is they're not going to remember the why's and the philosophy of building at first... they have girlfriends, and beer parties, ACT and SATs to worry about- this is supposed to be cool! What they will cling to is the work as it's progressing and the process of building "their own." My best kids took the most when the build is about them and not about building, per say. Obviously you won't let them do certain steps that are unsafe. They're young, they can catch instead of feed, but keeping the "why they want to work/ build" present and up front will keep their interest steady and your opportunity for success that much more attainable. Attitude is my big thing, with kids (and most adults honestly) your coaching/ teaching that more then the actual building. Make a "huge mistake early" (break a side or something) and move through it like it's part of the process, don't let them "be afraid to build wrong, or make a mistake." Kids respond to big events and watching a focused teacher recreate and correct through the mistake. |
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