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Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=29599		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
I used to buy the 1/8 x 3/8 x 18" strips from Los Alamos Composites and recently needed to order more but Jim is getting out of the business. I bought from Los Alamos because the quality was high and the pricing was significantly lower than the obvious sources.

Is anyone aware of an alternative source?

TIA
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
JJ.....some other sources mentioned in this recent thread.
viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=29330&hilit=alamos
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
Thanks, Dave...good info. I missed that thread.
Author:  WudWerkr [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
These are guys Ive used , fast delivery . Dont know if they are best choice , but Ive been happy so far.

www.dragonplate.com
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
Quote:
These are guys Ive used , fast delivery . Dont know if they are best choice , but Ive been happy so far.

www.dragonplate.com


What size are you getting from them.

Fred
Author:  WudWerkr [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
Fred Tellier wrote:
Quote:
These are guys Ive used , fast delivery . Dont know if they are best choice , but Ive been happy so far.

http://www.dragonplate.com


What size are you getting from them.

Fred



.125 x .325

.125 x .500

.200 x .250


All By 48" Length Mostly use .200 x .250 But Remember I build mostly mando's . So my lengths are shorter in the build.
Author:  David Newton [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
I get the 1/8" x 1/2" x 48" from dragon plate, I checked all the regular sources and found that one the best value.
Theirs comes quite slick, so I take the glaze off before I glue it in.
Author:  martinedwards [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
these are 5.5mm (.22")diameter tubes. 76cm (30") long

they cost 1/3 what Stewmac ask for the solid rectangular section....

I've used short pieces to reinforce failed head/neck join, epoxied into a slot.

I get 'em in a big sports shop near me.......

Image

Image
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
Filippo Morelli wrote:
If Jim is getting out hopefully he may have suggestions for his customers.

Filippo


Jim suggested LMI.
Author:  John A [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
wouldn't the square cross section be better than a round cross section at resisting bending forces from the neck/strings? seems like round arrow shafts are more flexible than a square tube.
Author:  WudWerkr [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
The square I use is not a tube , but a solid piece so it is very stiff ! [:Y:]
Author:  Steve Saville [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
The Composite Store.

http://www.cstsales.com/carbon_te.html
Author:  Greenman [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
:mrgreen: I was taking to a non luthier and telling him I was reinforcing a neck with carbon fiber tubes and he said to get arrow shafts. I was looking online for arrow parts. Anyone tried this? Thanks
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
Dragon plate also.
Author:  muthrs [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
I've used both Dragon and CST and they both seem to be the same product, neither of which are the same quality as Jim's. It would be great to find the another source for Jim's product. Jim, please help!
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
muthrs wrote:
I've used both Dragon and CST and they both seem to be the same product, neither of which are the same quality as Jim's. It would be great to find the another source for Jim's product. Jim, please help!


Randy...why do you feel that the quality is lower?

I just got my order from Dragon Plate. Very fast delivery time! The differences are the fact that DP's product is .325" height as opposed to Jim's .375" plus I also need to cut in the 15* angle. The cost was definitely better at $7.25 ea. for a 24" length. The 48" length is a better value (yields 3 pieces) which I plan to order next time.
Author:  muthrs [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
JJ,

I like that Jim's CF is rectangular while the Dragon and CST stuff has rounded corners. In fact the thin edges on the Dragon and CST CF don't provide a flat gluing surface. Also Jim's stuff is a bit stiffer and doesn't have a glossy finish. It's definitely a different product than the Dragon and CST CF. I usually just put the 15 degrees on with a belt sander. Have you used Jim's Cf? If you have the two in hand, the difference is immediately apparent.
Author:  Josh H [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
Not wanting to hijack the thread (but also not wanting to start a new one). What is the width you guys are using?

Josh
Author:  muthrs [ Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
1/8" x 3/8"
Author:  Jim Watts [ Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
muthrs wrote:
JJ,

I like that Jim's CF is rectangular while the Dragon and CST stuff has rounded corners. In fact the thin edges on the Dragon and CST CF don't provide a flat gluing surface. Also Jim's stuff is a bit stiffer and doesn't have a glossy finish. It's definitely a different product than the Dragon and CST CF. I usually just put the 15 degrees on with a belt sander. Have you used Jim's Cf? If you have the two in hand, the difference is immediately apparent.


Randy Thanks for the kind words, my product is/was different than that of the others mentioned. I made all of the product myself using unidirectional prepreg which provides a highly controlled fiber to resin volume, the other products are pultruded (similar to extrusion) and have a higher resin content and often a lower quality resin. I suspect the other suppliers are purchasing from the pultruders and reselling.
A prepreg part will never compete with a pultruded product especially if the pultruded product is shiney.
I'm very glad you understood the difference in examing the various products.

I recommended LMI to JJ as they also used prepreg at one time in their processing years ago and I like em, but I have no idea what their product currently is to be honest, but I kenw others were selling pultrusion.
Not all carbon fiber is equal, it's not like buying aluminum or steel, and tubes are not as stiff as a solid rod of the same cross section, it is a more efficient way to use the material however, so a little larger tube would weigh less and be as stiff, but it's overall diameter would be bigger.
Also stay away from products that have a woven cloth in them for neck reinforcement as half of the fibers are runing in the wrong direction for this application. I'd look good though.
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
Jim Watts wrote:
muthrs wrote:
JJ,

I like that Jim's CF is rectangular while the Dragon and CST stuff has rounded corners. In fact the thin edges on the Dragon and CST CF don't provide a flat gluing surface. Also Jim's stuff is a bit stiffer and doesn't have a glossy finish. It's definitely a different product than the Dragon and CST CF. I usually just put the 15 degrees on with a belt sander. Have you used Jim's Cf? If you have the two in hand, the difference is immediately apparent.


Randy Thanks for the kind words, my product is/was different than that of the others mentioned. I made all of the product myself using unidirectional prepreg which provides a highly controlled fiber to resin volume, the other products are pultruded (similar to extrusion) and have a higher resin content and often a lower quality resin. I suspect the other suppliers are purchasing from the pultruders and reselling.
A prepreg part will never compete with a pultruded product especially if the pultruded product is shiney.
I'm very glad you understood the difference in examing the various products.

I recommended LMI to JJ as they also used prepreg at one time in their processing years ago and I like em, but I have no idea what their product currently is to be honest, but I kenw others were selling pultrusion.
Not all carbon fiber is equal, it's not like buying aluminum or steel, and tubes are not as stiff as a solid rod of the same cross section, it is a more efficient way to use the material however, so a little larger tube would weigh less and be as stiff, but it's overall diameter would be bigger.
Also stay away from products that have a woven cloth in them for neck reinforcement as half of the fibers are runing in the wrong direction for this application. I'd look good though.


Jim,

I would be willing to bet that if you were willing to do runs from time to time you could probably pre-sell and then only produce what you had sold. I am not sure of your process at all so maybe that is not practical or possible, but if it is then I know I would be in that line to buy more (I would have stocked up had I known that you were thinking of stopping production!)

Shane
Author:  Jim Watts [ Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
Ah, it's a mixed blessing Shane.
Just a quick little background on the bussiness and life (this is all good don't worry) . My wife and I have 3 children which we home schooled, while my oldest daughter was in high school she wanted to learn about business. So with my background in composites we decided to do Los Alamos Composites as a way to teach her about business, you know the whole thing from making something and selling it, setting up a business, web site, book keeping, paying taxes all that stuff. I think it came off pretty well and she learned a lot through this. She did my website as part of it also and I helped her with the production end on the composites. Well my kids are all young adults now and my wife and I have carried on the composites end of things, the oldest just got married to a great guy and are off at grad school. So, this leaves me with to much on my plate right now and I'd rather be building guitars than making carbon fiber rods for everyone.
Any way I hope that's not over sharing, I think it's pretty cool all she did. She was thinking about going into material science at one point, but changed to dentistry.
Author:  Mike Lindstrom [ Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
Jim that is awesome! As a teacher, I wish all my kids had parents who took such an interest in their learning. It is obvious in the classroom which students are getting the time and support at home. There is not much I can do to make up for those differences in the rest of my students' lives. Every year, I have parents who are "too busy" to spend 10 minutes reading to their kids, or helping them practice math facts, let alone help them set up and run a business. And believe me, it shows.

I should stop now before I start ranting political, but I hope you know what a difference you made for your kids.

Mike
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
Jim...thanks for chiming in. I love your story as will your daughter for the rest of her life and career. I too greatly appreciate such 1st hand stories and lessons in entrepreneurship and application of free market principles.

Can anyone define the relevant physical properties of DP vs Jim's product so that we can make some informed decisions?
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon Fiber Neck Reinforcing Strip...Sources?
Great story Jim!
Didn't buy a great deal but I always appreciated quality, value and level of service. Sad to see it fold up. (With the level of goodwill you've built up, I'd have thought it might be an attractive business for someone to buy off you, and to carry on the good name and superior product.)
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