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recording advice needed
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=29587		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  recording advice needed
I need to do some recording but know nothing about what I need to accomplish this. I have heard that for around 200 bucks I can go to my local Guitar Center and get equipment that would allow me to record guitars with a mic or through the guitar pickup right in to my computer. Can anyone offer some advice?

Thanks.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
Hi Robbie,

You can get a simple high-quality audio interface box for around $100. Here's an M-Audio unit I found with a quick search. This sort of thing will work just fine for you I believe. I had an older version of the M-Audio unit that I used for years. They make good quality stuff. HTH.

Cheers,
Dave Fifield
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
With all the students you have run through your program and your contacts around Denver I bet there are a bunch that have a little studio in their basement. Ask around, I would guess there will be a line at your door in no time.
Author:  JoeUlman [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
In addition to the audio interface that Dave mentioned, there are a couple other options you might consider. One is a USB mic with a line input jack – simple and relatively inexpensive, no separate audio interface is needed; the line input allows recording from an electric pickup.

Another way to go is a portable recorder like the Zoom H4N or Sony PCM D50. These can simplify things in that a computer, microphone cables, etc. are not required during recording sessions. Some of these portable recorders can also double as an audio interface making them pretty flexible.

Editing the sound once it’s recorded opens up another can of worms.

Joe
Author:  DannyV [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
[:Y:] [:Y:] For Zoom H4N. Just don't try to take in too much of the instruction manual in one go. That little feller has a LOT of functions.
Author:  woody b [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
I've got a Zoom H4 (not the newer "N") Most of the recording on this page were made using it.
http://brackettinstruments.com/clips.html
Author:  Jim Watts [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
Another vote for the Zoom H4.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
The H-4 is a great recorder, but if you want to record to your computer, there are, as has been mentioned, a number of good usb or powered mics, that will interface directly with a good sound card. Editing software is easy. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure you can do just about anything you would want to do with Audacity 1.3. Check it out. If you have Soundblaster, they also have software that will handle everything you'll ever want to do. It's not Pro Tools, but it will do most of the stuff.
Author:  alan stassforth [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
Unless you want to learn how to do it, have somebody with equipment do it for you.
I use a Tascam digital 8 track that took a while to figure out that works well,
and I can take wave files from that on c.d. and dump it into a friends pro tools set-up.
I like to work with knobs.
I also like to let people who know what they're doing do it, instead of me.
Author:  Kim [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
Notha vote for the Zoom H4n and if you want to record to the PC it will do that too [:Y:]
Author:  meddlingfool [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
The zoom and things like it are great for certain applications, but you're limited to an x/y configuration. Getting a studio pack like Fillipo posted in the 'Bad Week' thread gives you a lot more versatility. Being able to fiddle with mic placement and being able to individually capture multiple sources opens up a larger palette, as does having a large diaphragm condenser. You don't want to sing into a pencil condenser.
I couldn't get Waddy's M-Audio link to work, but I have one of their devices and have had trouble free performance for ten years from it. Decent 'pro-sumer' level mic pre's, and the A/D conversion's not too bad.
Be careful though, with recording at home you're hovering near a very expensive rabbit hole. Remember when you thought acoustic guitars were ridiculously overpriced and it would be cheaper just to make your own? (Or was that just me? :D )
Author:  Billy T [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
Image

You can find them for about $160.00. Quality is top notch! There's a lot of functions just for the guitar player, not just a digital recorder in MP3 or WAV format but variable speed playback without changing pitch. This Bad Boy's made especially for guitar recording. The Zoom is good but this one is better suited to guitarist's needs...(and it's prettier)! :D
Author:  alan stassforth [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
" you're hovering near a very expensive rabbit hole."
That"s so true Meddling.
Mics, preamps, compressors.
The list never ends,
so the h4 or Tascam are good,
if you stop there,
which you probably won't.
Author:  MaxBishop [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
Robbie,

I got the Tascam DR-07 new on eBay for about $140.00. It is a great little hand-lheld unit that's easy to use and makes very nice recordings with the built-in or external mic(s). Records in MP3 or .wav. Download right to your computer via usb cable. Check it out.

Best wishes,
Max
Author:  nkwak [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
If you're just recording raw single takes (no multiple tracks or filters such as reverb) and want to keep the costs down then I suggest the Zoom H2. Just sit about 2 feet away from it with the unit roughly pointed at the 12th fret and you should get a decent enough recording. - just be sure that you have headphones hooked up so that you can hear if there's any distortion from being to close or pointing the microphone to much toward the sound hole. Just be sure that you record in WAV format, not MP3. Afterward, just plug it into your computer via a USB connection and open it in Audacity, which is free. If you want MP3s for your website you can convert the sound files there.
Author:  Billy T [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
MaxBishop wrote:
Robbie, I got the Tascam DR-07 new on eBay for about $140.00. Max


Geesh guys! I'm trying to push Robbie into buying a GT-R1 because I want to buy one and I want Robbie to tell us first if it's any good! laughing6-hehe

Robbie by the time you get decent mics(2..one sounds pretty flat) and a mixer, cables, stands..., your starring at about 2 hundred bucks! Real, real easy! That leaves you with a digital recorder with onboard mics. If you want to upgrade to decent mics later, that option's available even though the onboards are pretty good, they're not top notch. With great mics the recordings incredible.

Digital recorders are compact, easy to set up...anywhere and give you a great sound. If your a song writer/guitar player the GT-R1 is great! You can DL any song you want and play back at slow speed to learn those tough parts. Adjust the recorder to play in tune with your guitar, not the other way around. The GT-R1 has an amp simulator, reverb and multi-effects!

If your just interested in recording without the specialized guitar applications then maybe a plain digital recorder is better, but the price difference is maybe 20-30.00 bucks. If I'm not mistaken the mic capsules are exactly the same!

My suggestion, if your looking for a good recording...cheap... is to Craigslist, but I haven't seen to many digicorders and getting a plain mixer or Audacity type gets you into mic territory. Even a decent mic(Shure SM57 is about $65.00+, or a Nady Mic/Stand/Cable kit $30.00) with Audacity(free) you're there!

Ive saw a Audio Technica ATR-1100 for $9.00, but I don't have a clue about how it sounds.
Author:  Glenn LaSalle [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
I think it really depends on whether you want to create using your computer, or with a stand-alone. Personally, I like using my computer. Here is my set-up:

- E-Mu 0404 USB Interface with 2 Mic Preamps built-in
- Connected to my iMac
- I hook up 2 microphones to the E-Mu: AKG C-1000S and a Sterling Audio (You can use any Microphone, and 1 is sufficient)
- I use Logic Pro to record. But if you have a MAC, Garage Band will do just fine, and is part of iLife (free with new MACs)

M-Audio, as mentioned above, has some very good USB interfaces that work well and are quite reasonably priced.

Since I hook my E-Mu through my iMAC, I can also use photobooth to record quick videos with decent audio quality - perfect for teaching, showing off a new guitar, etc. Following is a link to a quick video I did with the set-up above (although I overdrove the sound a little), and I have the video in mirror image, so need to reverse it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY-rwE_07Pg

Glenn
Author:  Kim [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
meddlingfool wrote:
The zoom and things like it are great for certain applications, but you're limited to an x/y configuration.


Why's that? The H4n has 2 x XLR inputs so you can plug in a large diaphragm condenser mic and it has a stereo input which when used disables the X/Y mics that are on the unit and allows placement of a pair of pencils. It also does the variable speed playback without changing pitch from memory. Tis true that the manual is in crap chinglish but the interface is very intuitive and it is easy enough to follow logic and find your way around. It is not the be all and end all but nothing is in recording.

I think the trick in buying this sort of stuff is to first decide from the onset exactly what level of recording quality you will be happy with and shoot for that instead of making the mistake of imagining the 'best' recording quality you can possibly achieve. In other words keep your expectations realistic because recording is like drag racing, at entry level you get very good bang for your buck as you make the obvious improvements, but once you start getting serious, the tiniest of improvements sometimes only measurable electronically can cost 'huge' money.

So it is important to identify the equipment that you 'know' can deliver a recording quality you will be happy with, buy it, and then keep your focus firmly upon learning how to get the best out of it. This means you need to maintain firm self control and not allow yourself to get distracted by the 'one more step is better' syndrome, whereby you convince yourself that perfection is only one step away, because its not, and the ladder is high, and the destination in the sound recoding game is more often than not obsoleteville.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  Robbie O'Brien [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
Thank you everyone for the advice and suggestions. I have been advised by Steve Devries, the person who will be doing the recording, that I need an interface with two recordable inputs. He also recommends a large diaphragm condenser mic and something like a shure 57 placed at different locations while recording. Will any of the units mentioned in this thread so far be able to do what I have described?

Here is a youtube video of Steve Devries
Author:  DennisK [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
E-mu 0404 will do it. Some others are Tascam US-122 or US-144, M-Audio Fast Track Pro, PreSonus AudioBox USB, Line 6 POD Studio UX2. All more or less the same. Also E-mu Tracker Pre, which is like 0404 but without MIDI, but it has the handy feature that it can provide phantom power off the USB without needing an external power source. Whatever you get, make sure it's USB 2.0, as USB 1.0 can only make it to 16-bit 44.1KHz with 2 inputs. Adequate, but 24-bit is preferable.

I use PreSonus Firebox, which is a similar interface but uses firewire, which has lower latency for live feedback stuff like using your computer as an electric guitar amp, or just putting reverb on your voice, etc.. Also has 2 line inputs that you can record from simultaneously with the preamped XLR/instrument inputs. Not actually that useful though, I tried recording my digital piano through them and the level was so low it was fuzzy even at 24-bit, unless I turn the piano up unreasonably loud (what sense does it make to run the signal through the speaker volume control before going to line out?). Could run through an external pre-amp though, and then you'd have 4 good inputs for a much better price than M-Audio Fast Track Ultra or similar, plus the lower latency of firewire.
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
Decent recordings can be made with the right novice equipment and bad recordings can be made on state of the art stuff....which is to say that recording is knowledge intensive and can be frustrating. I would suggest that the main issue for you to embrace is making stereo recordings. With all other things being equal, stereo recording vs. mono recording of the acoustic guitar offeres a vast improvement of depth and clarity.

The best stereo recordings of acoustic guitar that I've made have been made been using 1. Octava MK012 stereo matched mics. 2. Twin VTB-1 preamps. 3. A small Yamaha mixing console 4. Cakewalk Sonar software onto the hard drive. About $2000 for all that.

http://www.recordingproject.com/bbs/vie ... 95&start=0

Hopefully that link works....that an example of a stereo recording using the equipment above.

With a little experience you could do a similar job with a couple of SM57's and a $100 Behringer stereo pre-amp going straight into the line in on your computer as long as you have a reasonabe sound card and a software recording program. It would take some tinkering but it can be done.
Author:  Jim Watts [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
As a builder one of the things I like about the zoom h4 (other portables I suppose too) is it's portability out into the shop, and it's ability to record at 96 KHz. I use this feature to capture taps and then analyze them using Audacity. You certainly can do this with a computer, but it's handy to have such a portable unit that records well also.
I know it's been mentioned that the zoom h4 takes external mic's, but you can also plug a guitar straight into it.
Author:  Kim [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
Good tip on using the Zoom H4n to capture tap tunings Jim, I'll try that. Its also a fun unit to use to layer your tracks as well. For instance you can lay down rhythm and a bit of percussion, don the headphones and then add some lead runs, then maybe some harp over that, and finish with some vocals. Makes for a fun afternoon recording session...but unfortunately it seems if the main input (me) is crap, the quality of the recording does nothing to add to the appeal of the end product. :(

Cheers

Kim
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
Oops and pardon. I didn't know it had extra inputs, cause I ack, yup, assumed. So I stand (well OK, I just finished a gig so I sway) corrected.
Author:  Glenn LaSalle [ Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: recording advice needed
Robbie O'Brien wrote:
Thank you everyone for the advice and suggestions. I have been advised by Steve Devries, the person who will be doing the recording, that I need an interface with two recordable inputs. He also recommends a large diaphragm condenser mic and something like a shure 57 placed at different locations while recording. Will any of the units mentioned in this thread so far be able to do what I have described?

Here is a youtube video of Steve Devries

Hi Robbie,

That is exactly my set-up described above. The E-Mu 0404 has 2 inputs, and I hook up a large condenser mic (Mine is a Sterling) and an AKG C1000S. When I record I have both Mics recording. And, to be honest, I love using Macs rather than windows based PCs.

Glenn
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