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Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=29563		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  My Dog Bob [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
I have been using a Stanley #605 Bedrock plane that has the bottom lapped flat and the sides made perpendicular to the bottom for jointing. Works pretty well, but I am wondering if any of you are using a #7 or #607 (or #8 or #608 for that matter) for jointing tops and backs... is it a lot easier/faster to get a jointed edge ready for glue up with those planes compared to a properly set up Jack plane?

Thanks much, Peter Z
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
I use an old #7 that I got cheap and trued up and am happy with it though it is the only one I have used. If you are getting good results with a tool, why change.

Fred
Author:  wolfsearcher [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
I too would like to know how much more efficent a no 7 is compared to a no5 (fully tuned)
Would it be less risky to joint a narrow set ?
or if you wanted to keep from planing off a particular grain line or something ?
tomas
Author:  Daniel Minard [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
I use a Lie Nielson 5 1/2 and find it perfect for jointing tops & backs. My old Bailey # 7 has been pretty much retired since I got the Lie Nielson. I don't find the extra length helpful for planing a 22" joint.
Author:  SteveCourtright [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
Todd is quite right. Bigger is better if you are jointing really long stuff, like tabletops.

I use a 4 1/2 with complete success for jointing tops and backs. Heck, I have seen these joints made with a block plane.
Author:  windsurfer [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
Big planes can be awkward when working with small thin pieces of wood. I use either a 4 1/2 or a LV medium shoulder plane (I use a 1/4" thick shooting board with the shoulder plane).

-jd
Author:  walnut47 [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
I use a #7 that I came across cheap and in near perfect shape. I don't find it awkward to use on a shooting board. However, I used a #5 before I got the 7 and I don't think the 7 is enough better to make it a must-have.
Walter
PS That is unless you just like planes a lot, which I do.
Author:  murrmac [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
pzwinakis wrote:
I have been using a Stanley #605 Bedrock plane that has the bottom lapped flat and the sides made perpendicular to the bottom for jointing.


I am kind of intrigued by how you did this.

The sole being lapped flat I totally get ( I do it myself on friend's planes, but I do have a huge surface plate to work on) but how did you get the sides (plural, both of them ?) square to the sole ?

All the machinists with surface grinders (or milling machines) with whom I am acquainted who would be capable of doing this operation would charge more for doing this than the cost of a new Lie-Nielsen ... eek
Author:  My Dog Bob [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
How did I true the plane up? After I lapped the bottom perfectly flat, Used a file to get the sides really close (they were pretty far out to start with), then Emory paper on a machined surface, then a diamond coated steel plate. All the while checking with a small machinist square. I had to regress a couple of times back to the file, then Emory cloth, etc.. to get the angle just right. It took an hour or two but it's pretty darn perfect now.
Author:  murrmac [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
pzwinakis wrote:
How did I true the plane up? After I lapped the bottom perfectly flat, Used a file to get the sides really close (they were pretty far out to start with), then Emory paper on a machined surface, then a diamond coated steel plate. All the while checking with a small machinist square. I had to regress a couple of times back to the file, then Emory cloth, etc.. to get the angle just right. It took an hour or two but it's pretty darn perfect now.


Phew ... sooner you than me, but congratulations on getting it right.

I use a Stanley 605 on which, like yours, the sides were way out of whack to the sole. I lapped the sole flat, and then lapped the right hand side flat. To get it cutting square on my shooting board, I just fixed a strip of veneer of the right thickness , and in the right place, with double sided tape to bring the sole to vertical, waxed the veneer, and away you go. I never bothered doing anything to the other side , couldn't see the point as far as I was concerned although obviously YMMV.
Author:  Miketobey [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
I have nicely jointed plates with my 5 1/4 Bailey(the reform school, junior jack). I have a 608 Flattie, but the purpose for a jointer that big is to joint things much out of the practical range of shooting boards. Now then, I am the proud owner of replicas of greatest "shooter" ever made, the Stanley box miter #9(2, actually, one the old bronze body LN and one a newer ductile iron LN #9). A # 9 is not even as long as a #5 but on a shooting board it is perfect.

I also have very square planes. But, you do not need a shooting plane precision 90* to the sides and sole. That is why that little lever pokes out between the frog and the tote(unless your Stanley Baileys are "pre-lateral). And, if you maintain the bookmatch orientation, the planed edge angles of both pieces complement and you get a seamless joint. My really ugly shooting board does use two 1/8th" pins for registry, but lots of the time, I skip them. They are positioned outside the body lines.

On typical guitar build plates, a # 4,5, 5 1/2, or at most a 6, will be adequate for jointing.

If you just want to need more planes because they are such elegant and at the same time useful tools, well, I understand. I only kind of collect, compared to others I know.
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
Veritas #6 from Lee Valley. Works great, nice ajustments, a nice tool! U jointed with it for the first time today... FUN!
Author:  Miketobey [ Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
I tend to go with Veritas/Lee Valley for my specialty planes. My bench planes are a mix of vintage Stanleys,Lie-Nielsen and an old Record or two.
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
I've used a Stanley #4 for all of my joining for better than 30 years. That includes making hammered dulcimers and archtops. Once you get the plane tuned up right the length is not so much an issue, unless, as has been said, you're joining table tops.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
I'm with Alan, a well tuned and sharp #4. It's lighter and much easier to control than the larger ones, and more than sufficient.
Author:  UkeforJC [ Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
Todd Stock wrote:
The rule of thumb is a plane of at least half the length of the stock, but good technique will allow a skilled user to handle much longer stock.


Hello Everyone,
I am only building ukulele, not guitar, so I will only be joining 11"-15" boards.
Is the LV LA Jack plane (15" long) over kill for this job?
I do feel that a 15" plane is so big for a small instrument. Should I go for a #4 smoother plane (9.5") ?
Thanks..
Author:  My Dog Bob [ Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
...
Author:  truckjohn [ Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
One thing you will learn is that (Unfortunately...) there's a whole lot more to getting a good joint than just flattening the sole and sharpening the iron....

I found that how I hold the plane in my hands and how I clamp the wood can determine whether I end up with a joint that is true, concave, or convex.... Setup of the plane is critical as well.... Those final cuts must be done with a crazy razor sharp edge and must take off just the merest whisp of wood...

Personally, I would start out with whatever plane you currently own... Practice practice practice practice practice practice... and practice some more.... At first, you will be chasing the joint and it won't make any sense.... Then, as you practice more - you will notice... Gosh, if I hold here and plane like this - it takes off more wood in the Center.... and if I hold like this and plane like this... it takes off more wood on the ends.... and if I carefully shift my grip just so - it comes out more even all the way across....

Resaw some 2x4's into 3 1/2" wide x 1/4" thick x 22" long slices and joint up and glue all the slices into "Tops".... A $3.00 2x4 will give you hours of cheap practice before you put the blade to a $40.00 top set....

Thanks
Author:  jac68984 [ Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
I used a standard angle jack for joining the tops and backs of my first 2 guitars. I had mixed results. Sometimes getting a light-free joint was relatively easy. Others, it seemed I would chase the gap around for literally hours. Like John said, there is a fair amount of technique and feel involved. I'm sure my problems came from my lack of experience and poor technique. A while back I found an old Stanley Sweetheart No. 7 on Ebay cheap and thought I would give it a try. After a few hours tuning it up, and using it to join multiple backs and tops, I can easily say the No. 7 works much better for me, and I don't find that it is cumbersome to use with my shooting board. Pretty sure I didn't spend more than a few minutes jointing any of latest batch of tops or backs. I think the longer plane somewhat made up for my poor technique. I kind of feel like I'm cheating using it, and I might ultimately be denying myself the opportunity to develop a better feel and hone my planing skills by using the larger No. 7. Who knows. Regardless, I like the No. 7. Good luck whatever your decision.

Aaron
Author:  nickton [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
I had success using a piece of sandpaper glued to a a flat surface (granite counter top piece), for fine tuning my edges, simply standing a small square next to it to make sure I'm holding them square to the surface. Simple and low tech but it works for me.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
When I've had frustrating moments jointing, I have used the sandpaper on a level method, then I would take one light pass with the plane set to remove a fine, but continuous shaving, to give a clean joint. However, I have joined sanded joints too, with no issues.
Author:  Corky Long [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
truckjohn wrote:
One thing you will learn is that (Unfortunately...) there's a whole lot more to getting a good joint than just flattening the sole and sharpening the iron....

I found that how I hold the plane in my hands and how I clamp the wood can determine whether I end up with a joint that is true, concave, or convex.... Setup of the plane is critical as well.... Those final cuts must be done with a crazy razor sharp edge and must take off just the merest whisp of wood...

Personally, I would start out with whatever plane you currently own... Practice practice practice practice practice practice... and practice some more.... At first, you will be chasing the joint and it won't make any sense.... Then, as you practice more - you will notice... Gosh, if I hold here and plane like this - it takes off more wood in the Center.... and if I hold like this and plane like this... it takes off more wood on the ends.... and if I carefully shift my grip just so - it comes out more even all the way across....

Resaw some 2x4's into 3 1/2" wide x 1/4" thick x 22" long slices and joint up and glue all the slices into "Tops".... A $3.00 2x4 will give you hours of cheap practice before you put the blade to a $40.00 top set....

Thanks



GREAT ADVICE!!

In terms of "holding the plane differently" I had a breakthrough when I thought about the nose and tail of the plane like an airplane. If you put a bit more pressure on the tail at the end of the pass you can correct for a convex (high in the middle) joint, and the opposite - gently rotate the pressure towards the nose of the plane to correct for a concave (gap in the middle) joint.

Oh, and +2 on the sharpness of the blade. If you're taking curls off, no matter how fine, it's too coarse of a cut (and the plane's probably not sharp enough). At the final stages you really need to take the finest wisp of a cut - translucent, and it ripples, it's so fine. I find that when it's that sharp and fine, I can literally "spot - level" - if there's a high spot, I can plane it on that spot alone, to make the joint tighter.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
In olden times, such as the 1960's (from what I hear) the first exercise in a beginner's metal shop class was often to take a chunk of steel and a file and a vise and turn the chunk into a cube. Well-squared metal objects existed before machine shop surface grinders.
Author:  ernie [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
I have successfully used a homemade 18 in or try plane made of walnut with a rosewood sole and a very tight mouth 1/32, in for 32 years , it has a german ECE blade , or you can substitute hock, LN or LV or even a good 2 in yard sale blade. Bodies can be made from various local woods. Even though I own 2 metal #7 planes a,#6 an 2 24 in german ece primus planes I find the 18 in light plane very sensitive and extremely effective in getting a nice tight joint. If the boards are not straight I will true them up on the belt sander first or a 14 in stanley jack plane with a hock blade. Making your own planes , (if you have the time) is a great way to increase your skill, and learn what it takes to make a good tight joint . Good luck
Author:  MacD [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hand plane jointing question.. #5 vs #7
I used a Record 5 1/2 for pretty much everything (other than small stuff) for years, but wondered if I was missing something so bought 4 1/2 and a 6. Now I use the Record 5 1/2 for pretty much everything (other than small stuff), and occasionally use the blades from the 4 1/2 and the 6 in the 5 1/2. The 4 1/2 has a Veritas scraping plane insert in it now...

Bri
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