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binding woes
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=29545		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  rono [ Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:  binding woes
I'm just sick of breaking binding strips. gaah

I'm bending over a hot pipe and I just can't get them perfect. I always have a few gaps of 1/8" at some point around the perimeter of the guitar when I'm holding it in place. I can use binding tape to hold the binding tightly in my outside mold.

The questions:

What are your acceptable tolerances before moving on to glueing?

What's the largest gap I can expect to close with the tape?

Thanks for the advice.
Author:  evanmelstad [ Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: binding woes
How thick are your bindings? Thinner bindings are easier to bend, and are easier to pull in to close gaps.
Author:  rono [ Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: binding woes
Bindings are 3/32" and walnut. The channels are already cut so there's no going thinner now.

They bend like butter, I just can't get them perfect...they break when I get impatient.
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: binding woes
Depending on where your "gap" is, 1/8" is not a problem. If the waist is overbent, that's the only real issue. Try to get them as close as possible, be patient and keep at it. When bending, use a metal slat over top of the wood to help support the outside of the bend. Also how many pieces are you trying to bend at once. More is better, like 6-8 if need be, all taped together.

There's secret to bending wood, just need to be patient. You already know that the walnut bends easily, just take your time and don't force it.
Author:  Nick Oliver [ Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: binding woes
rono wrote:
I just can't get them perfect...they break when I get impatient.


There's the problem right there ;) When you are bending you'll have to try & remember to take your time & get it right against the time it will take you to rebend new bindings, believe me it's alot quicker so no reason to get impatient. You can 're-straighten' over bent bindings & tweak underbent ones so go steady & carefully & I think you'll be alot happier with your results.
Author:  Heath Blair [ Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: binding woes
when you dry fit the binding in the channel on the guitar, using tape to hold things firmly in place, how much of a gap do you have? 1/8" when just held in place by hand is nothing. in fact, id say that is pretty dang good. i bend binding in a fox style bender and i never get it anything close to perfect. things come in nice and tight though with a rubber binding strap. others have good success with just tape, however. tape the binding in the channel with no glue and let us know how it looks.
Author:  Ti-Roux [ Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: binding woes
I don't if it could help you but, last year, I was bending sides for a Uke, and it was really a nightmare. I broke a set cause I could not get them perfect... I didn't want to build a fox bender just for a Uke, because I would probably don't do any other uke, so I found this solution. I've made positive and negative forms of the side. I bend by hand, the better I can, and to get them perfect, I heated them with heat gun, spray them a little, and put them between the + and - forms, between some cork, or some hard foam, then clamp it slowly. Let it overnight, and even more. They get out perfect.

I could be long to do forms but... if you're going to do the same model many times, you'll always have it.

You could also invest in a fox bender (I would say build it... 300% cheaper for, IMO, better stuff if done correctly)

Francis
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: binding woes
If you can't push it easily into place with your fingers, it's not a good fit. It's not so much about how big a space, as it is if it will slip into place when you press it lightly.
Author:  mhammond [ Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: binding woes
I spiral cut a 100' rubberband from a truck innertube (free). It don't matter anymore if'n there's small gaps before I wrap that dude up. Sometimes brute force is appropriate. :o
I'm never going back.........
Mikey
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: binding woes
i didn't read everything, but: It gets better.
Author:  Dave Fifield [ Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: binding woes
I'd say do yourself a favor and invest some time, effort, and a bit of money into building a Fox style bending machine with a heating blanket. Bending bindings will then become a quick, easy, and pain-free task. I have yet to break one in my Fox style bender, but I broke tons of them trying to use an electrically heated pipe the first year or so. The main problem with my electric bender turned out to be that it never got anywhere near hot enough (piece of junk!), so I always ended up pushing the bends too hard/fast: You should check that your hot pipe really is getting hot enough before going too much further.

Cheers,
Dave F.
Author:  Michael Smith [ Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: binding woes
I've been a woodworker all my life for a living. Cabinetry, stairwells custom homes etc. Much of the time I had to keep up a pretty good pace to get the work done in a timely manner. It can be fun to work quickly but for me I have found that I get much more joy from the work by going slowly, sometimes very slowly. and get all ideas of rapid production out of my head. Still when guitar building I have to check myself often and slow the pace of my work. I do better work and it is way more fun.

For your deal if you can tape your binding easily in place you are good. Try a few pieces of tape dry and see how it goes.
Author:  truckjohn [ Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: binding woes
Thinner binding does everything easier.... Next time -- try running it at 1/16" thick. Bends easier, fits up to the sides easier, etc......

This was one of the tips I was given almost 2 years ago when I was having binding trouble..... It made all the difference in the world. I have never gone back to my thick (0.090") bindings....

Thanks

John
Author:  Philip Perdue [ Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: binding woes
I really can’t help too much with the bending because I don’t have a real bender. The only bending I have done is a makeshift pipe bender filled with copper scour pads and powered by my heat gun. Funky and slow but it does work.

I do have a hint that may help. Try rounding the inside corner of your binding before fitting to the instrument. This is the edge that goes into the binding channel. By rounding the edge you avoid needing a perfect fit. This will give you a bit more flexibility when installing. If you are able you might also try installing the binding starting at the center of the waist. This is the tightest curve and it is easier to manipulate the binding going towards the large curves.

Hope this helps. [:Y:]

Philip
Author:  rono [ Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: binding woes
[:Y:] thanks for all the advice [:Y:]

I had thought about a dry fit with the tape but was worried about lifting fibers in the top when it wasn't necessary. It only took 5 pieces of tape to get everything to fit acceptably so my bends must have been ok.

Michael Smith wrote:
Much of the time I had to keep up a pretty good pace to get the work done in a timely manner. It can be fun to work quickly but for me I have found that I get much more joy from the work by going slowly, sometimes very slowly. and get all ideas of rapid production out of my head. Still when guitar building I have to check myself often and slow the pace of my work. I do better work and it is way more fun.


Nick Oliver wrote:
try & remember to take your time & get it right against the time it will take you to rebend new bindings, believe me it's alot quicker so no reason to get impatient.


Michael and Nick- this was exactly what I needed. I'm trying to rush something I've never really done before...I self-imposed an artificial deadline for this hoping that I could wrap it up before it was too cold to apply the finish in my garage. I chilled out a little before going into the shop after work tonight and went with a more zen-like approach...everything went much smoother.
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