Official Luthiers Forum!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Binding tape?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=29479		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  JoeUlman [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Binding tape?
I see where Cumpiano uses tape alone to secure the binding during gluing. Others wrap the body with something like cloth, rope, rubber bands, etc. Still others use a combination of tape and wrapping.

How well does tape by itself work? Would blue painter’s tape work?

Also, is it a good idea to seal the edge of the soundboard with shellac so the tape won’t pull up the wood fibers when removed? Thanks.

Joe
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
3M 233+ aka. green masking tape.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
That's what I do and also I shellac the binding channel as I use CA for gluing. I have a tut on how I do it. Blue painters tape is not the tape to use. Either a binding tape or Scotch 233+ bright green tape that can be bought at an auto paint store. I get mine from NAPA. It is somewhat elastic and streches and pulls back. I use it for several things and being it streches it can mask off curves areas far better then blue painters that will tear on curves.
I'm starting to think the best thing to do might be just put a protective and seal coat of shellac on a top right after it's thickness sanded. That way you don't have to worry about getting the top dirty and stained when installing the rosette or just getting dirt on it from handling it. It will sand off easily enough when it comes time to do your final sanding before finishing.
Author:  toddb [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
I have just finished binding my first guitar using doubled up blue painters tape @ 5" in length, and I had no problems with the strength of the tape. Also, each peace held in place for several hours without pulling loose, and when it came time to remove the tape there was almost no fiber tear out. I think that as long as you double up on the tape as Cumpiano suggests you shouldn't have any problems.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
Sure, you can use blue painters tape as I used it in the past until I found the 233 and it's the same price if not less then the blue tape so why not get the better and more useful tape. As far as pulling fibers. Shellac is cheap and easy to apply so why gamble. As a matter of fact why not have any fibers pull out?
This is your statement,"when it came time to remove the tape there was "almost" no fiber tear out."
Author:  toddb [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
Hi Chris,
I'm new to the forum as of today, but I've been lurking for a long time and I'd just like to say that I've really enjoyed all of the video tutorials you've posted over the years. They've been among the most helpful I've found on the net. Anyway, I didn't want to refute what you had posted, but only to say that blue painters tape had worked for me. I've got to learn how to not step on toes when posting. Sorry!
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
No need to be sorry, your not stepping on any toes. Like I said I'd used it before until I was told of something better. When you run out of the blue painters tape give the 233 a try and see how you like it. I'll bet you'll like it. I still use the blue for certain other jobs where I don't need the pulling or masking straight edges. And your statement about the fibers made the point about fibers getting pulled even with painters tape.
The cord/band method is also the choice of others as we all find and use what works for us. I can't say anything about it other then it will hold the binding tight into the channel closing up any gaps if done correctly as I haven't tried it and it seems to have worked very well over the years and is pretty much the time tested traditional method . It's more green too. :D
Welcome to the forum too!
Author:  Steve Frady [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
I'm starting to think the best thing to do might be just put a protective and seal coat of shellac on a top right after it's thickness sanded. That way you don't have to worry about getting the top dirty and stained when installing the rosette or just getting dirt on it from handling it. It will sand off easily enough when it comes time to do your final sanding before finishing.[/quote]

This was recommended to me by a retired luthier. I sealed the last sound board after thicknessing. I think I will do that from now on. It helps keep darker wood dust from staining the spruce.
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
Quote:
the best thing to do might be just put a protective and seal coat of shellac on a top right after it's thickness sanded


That's what I have been doing for a while now, I redo it after sanding the rosette and then sand it all off before masking the bridge and fingerboard areas. It has really cut down on little scratches and dings and of course prevents pulling up wood when pulling the binding tape.

Fred
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
I did that on the last one with the rosette but only did 3" around the edge after running the rosette through the sander. This build I did the rosette area and then after a bit of working did the rest of the top. I'm thinking it's going to be a must do especially for red spruce from now on. Like you said it saves a lot of touching up. I started to cover the top with cardboard cut to side and taped to the underside after it's voiced to protect it from those dings that seem to appear out of no where too. Steaming out dings isn't my favorite thing to have to do. Thank goodness they have all steamed out so far. :o
Author:  John A [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
I sealed my soundboard just around the rosette when I installed it - then the soundboard potato chipped. I was able to flatten it a little by placing big books on it and then brace it and pull it back into shape - since it was not too bad. Wouldn't this be worse of a problem if done just after thicknessing ?
Author:  Tim L [ Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
I pretty much have done what Todd says. I use the brown binding tape from LMI and if I feel that I need a bit more, as in the binding doesn't fit perfectly, I use the filament tape in the waist area.

Tim
Author:  Michael.N. [ Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
Tried the LMI Brown tape. Not for me. I went straight back to ordinary masking tape but even that stuff isn't created equally. The masking tape that I can obtain has some stretch to it, unlike some others that I've tried.
Author:  Haans [ Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
I use 3M standard duct tape.
Author:  Corky Long [ Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
John A wrote:
I sealed my soundboard just around the rosette when I installed it - then the soundboard potato chipped. I was able to flatten it a little by placing big books on it and then brace it and pull it back into shape - since it was not too bad. Wouldn't this be worse of a problem if done just after thicknessing ?


From reading your post it sounds like you're attributing the "potato chipping" to the application of shellac on the top. I'd be tempted to think that it was due to other factors, like big swing in humidity. At any rate, I've also followed the approach of spit coat of shellac on the top after thicknessing, to protect it. One thin coat on the whole top works great, and definitely protects the top.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
Another one for the 3M 323 green tape - nice stuff for joining backs and tops too. I also shellac the top and binding channel first based on advice from the more experienced around here.
Author:  JoeUlman [ Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
Thanks everyone - great discussion. I was curious about the stretchy tape – thinking that if it continued to relax at all after placing it, a gap could open up in areas where lots of force is needed to keep things tight – but it sounds like that isn’t a problem. From the discussion I’m getting the sense that the type of tape used is probably less important than having a good fit between binding/purflings and channel to start with. Not sure why different tape is used for different types of glue (?).

The idea of sealing the whole top with shellac early on sounds like it has merit. Would the area under the bridge have to be taken down to bare wood later?

Joe
Author:  SteveSmith [ Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
I'm not sure I'd say the type of tape is unimportant. I think good fit is essential no matter what you use and it turns out that there are several types of tape that seem to be well suited to the job.
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
The 233 doesn't relax and that's why it's better then the other tapes for this and other certain tasks like clampimg top and back plates together. And it is easily available and not a bad price.(that's important to me) Get the LMI or SM tape and you have to wait for it to arrive and pay for shipping.
Run down to NAPA and get to binding the guitar. Get a roll and try it compared to the blue tape and report back to us. You have to buy some tape anyway so find out for yourself. Like I said, we find out what works for us in the end.
Author:  enalnitram [ Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
I like to use an inner tube that I cut into strips. I do one side at a time.

Image
Author:  Andy Birko [ Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
Corky Long wrote:
John A wrote:
From reading your post it sounds like you're attributing the "potato chipping" to the application of shellac on the top. I'd be tempted to think that it was due to other factors, like big swing in humidity.


It was probably a combination of the two. The first time I sealed a top with shellac, I only did one side and it potato chipped on me. I sealed the other side and a few days later it flattened itself out.

Shellac is one of the best film moisture barriers we have out there. If you seal only one side, the rate of absorption is way different from the other side. I now seal both sides when I do seal. My finished instruments have sealed insides too. Not a lot of people do that but hey, to each his or her own.
Author:  L. Presnall [ Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
Todd Stock wrote:
...and I use a few pieces of tape to initially position stuff when I work with LMI White or Gorilla White...the rubber bands tighten up even the most difficult combinations of bindings and perfs.


Hi Todd,

I've been threatening to try this....do you have a problem with CA sticking, or is the rubber immune?
Author:  Chris Paulick [ Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
If using CA I'll just push the problem area into place and tack it with a little CA and while holding it in place touch some accelerator to it from a swab or the end of the pump hose. Obviously, don't hold it in place with bare fingures. Little pieces of UHMW cut from scrap with notches cut into them or formed to your liking works pretty good as a placement/ holding tool/caul.
As for fitting the binding to the channel, John Hall's tip about knocking off/ beveling the inside corner of the binding so that the binding will seat well into a rounded channel corner is a great tip that's simple and easy enough to do with great results.
Author:  wolfsearcher [ Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding tape?
Hello since the subject is mentioned ..ive been wondering this for ages

Has anyone ever tried/made a flexible caul for the task ?
the shape of angle iron with notches in it...
but made from a material like those flexible school rulers that you can roll
just a thought
tomas
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/