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Advice appreciated!!
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=29276		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Colin North [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:37 am ]
Post subject:  Advice appreciated!!
I'm only on my 5th guitar, so could really use a bit of guidance on this from people more knowledgable/experienced.

OK, so let's say, hypothetically, I just received this Cedar, really tight (about 25+ grains/inch), straight grained, and stiff, BUT, about 45 degrees(!!!) off quarter average over all 3 sets. Not much run-out as far as I can see. It's a real hassle and expense to return it - which might be my first reaction considering the grading quoted when advertised, compared to say, Shane's (High Mountain Tonewood) grading descriptions for degrees off quarter.

But, of course, with the work and time involved to make an instrument, I am hesitant to use them at all if it's not likely to work reasonably well.
Questions are :-

1) What are the disadvantages of it as a top wood, being off quarter?

If I were to use them :-

2) Would there any difference orientating it at the bookmatch joint ( /////l\\\\\\ or \\\\\\\l/////// , if you get my drift)?

3) Any extra "precautions" or adjustments to instrument to take into consideration suggested?

4) Would they be better used for a smaller SS, e.g. O/Parlour, or perhaps Nylons stringed instruments or would they still be suitable for an OLF SJ which was my original intention?
(If it matters, I would likely use eurospruce as bracing if making either classical or SS)

I am asking this instead of just writing it off because have seen pics (MIMF? of old mandolin) of a one piece top with grain all over the place, looks like rift to flat sawn, saying the intruments sounded fabulous, and it must have survived 50 yrs + at least.
I've also seen previous posts (about bracewood) saying stiffness being relatively unaffected by grain orientation.
Author:  John A [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
Colin - I can't answer your questions - and I am also interested in the answers.

But about your top wood. A reputable wood dealer would send you a new set that was quartered - to make up for their mistake of either sending you the incorrect wood or mislabeling it as AAA or AA or something that was quartered. If they want their 45 degree off quarter wood back - then they should pay the shipping. I would expect nothing less from a reputable dealer. Now if you are buying wood in a back alley or on an online auction site - then most times you don't know who you are dealing with. In that case you can also cancel a credit card transaction - if the product that you purchased is different than what you got delivered. Point is that a reputable dealer would take care of this issue - lest they don't care about their reputation.

I purchased from Shane before, and plan to put in my next purchase soon, as the wood was as described and better than expected ! - I would purchase from people from this board and from sponsors, because they all understand that good news travels fast on a forum, and bad news travels faster.
Author:  Corky Long [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
You'll get some expert opinions here - and mine isn't one of them :D , but everything I've heard about topwoods is that, more important than growth lines per inch, maybe even more important than some gentle runout, is that tops be almost perfectly quartersawn.

For me, I'd return them - and I definitely wouldn't use them, regardless of the hassle. Too much time working on a guitar to build with a flawed top.

My two cents..
Author:  John A [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
Maybe you can pick up some Nomex - and make them into double tops - the grain orientation will not be as important then.
Double tops with the cedar at veneer thickness with Nomex in the middle.
Author:  Tom West [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
At 45 degrees I would not use it. Too much work goes into a guitar not to be using something that is better than that. Guitars have been built with tops that far off quarter and some do sound good but why take a chance.
Tom
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
When you join them they will be ///|//// unless you flip one and ruin the bookmatch.

I would maybe use them for an experimental doubletop or lattice braced top; the cross grain flopines might be beneficial in removing some of the treble edge on a lattice braced nylon. These too often tend to sound ear-bleeding to me.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
From what I've seen, the main effect of being off quarter is that the lateral stiffness drops dramatically. This might not be a terrible thing depending on what you're trying to accomplish but I've never seen anything sold as top wood that was off quarter by much more than 10 degrees. I recently cut and sold a bunch of redwood and anything off by more than a few degrees got downgraded. Anything much more than 5 degrees got rejected unless it was only the outside inch or two.

John A wrote:
Maybe you can pick up some Nomex - and make them into double tops - the grain orientation will not be as important then.
Double tops with the cedar at veneer thickness with Nomex in the middle.


Why is that? Not arguing, just curious. I've never built a double top or researched it much but I would assume the properties of the skins would still matter.
Author:  Daniel Minard [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
Sensitivity to humidity change is an issue, when you are that far off vertical. Also, I doubt those tops will show any silking & will look dull under finish.
I was talking to William Cumpiano a few years ago. We spent quite a while discussing topwood grading. His grading system is different than most, with the presence (or absence) of silk, being the primary grading factor.
Personally, I wouldn't put the effort into those tops. As has been mentioned, your supplier should replace them without you having to return the very nice kindling you bought. ;)
Have you spoken to the supplier yet?
Take a pic of the end grain & send it to him as proof.

P.S. Is the angle of the grain the same on both ends? If not, you probably have significant runout, as well.
Author:  John A [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
As I understand it you bought wood that you thought was prime grade. But you got what no one here wants to use. That is valuable money that could have been spent on something else. You should take your issue up with the site from where you bought the wood from, if the supplier chooses not to do anything about it. For example on Ebay or Amazon, if a vendor sells something with misleading info, you report to Ebay or Amazon. If you bought it off a board like this one - you should complain to the board - in this case to Lance or Brock - I am sure they would talk to the vendor and show them the err of their ways.

Quote:
John A wrote:
Maybe you can pick up some Nomex - and make them into double tops - the grain orientation will not be as important then.
Double tops with the cedar at veneer thickness with Nomex in the middle.


Kent wrote: Why is that? Not arguing, just curious. I've never built a double top or researched it much but I would assume the properties of the skins would still matter.


As for a double top with Nomex - I don't have much experience or any at all, except for handling a sample top - it seems as if the structure and strength comes from the Nomex, not the wood. The wood contributes to the sound. The veneer thin cedar is then glued in order to sandwich the Nomex. Since the veneer thin wood is glued to a stronger structure, then it will not move - it is simply a veneer with good acoustic properties. Being quartered is only for stability and strength. But in this case stability and strength come from the Nomex - so therefore grain orientation does not matter as much.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
Colin North wrote:
OK, so let's say, hypothetically, I just received this Cedar, really tight (about 25+ grains/inch), straight grained, and stiff, BUT, about 45 degrees(!!!) off quarter average over all 3 sets. Not much run-out as far as I can see. It's a real hassle and expense to return it - which might be my first reaction considering the grading quoted when advertised.
Is it hypothetical, or do you have the wood?
If it was advertised being quartersawn I would return the tops and let the seller eat the shipping both ways: he wasted your time and your money.
Off-quarter by that much would mean to me that you can probably wrap your tops around a 4" pipe, how do they feel? Longitudinal stiffness should theoretically not be affected. Personally I wouldn't build with it. Besides the potential lack of cross-grain stiffness you'll run into the issue of your centreline moving as you sand down. Maybe not a big deal, but visually annoying.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
John A wrote:

As for a double top with Nomex - I don't have much experience or any at all, except for handling a sample top - it seems as if the structure and strength comes from the Nomex, not the wood. The wood contributes to the sound. The veneer thin cedar is then glued in order to sandwich the Nomex. Since the veneer thin wood is glued to a stronger structure, then it will not move - it is simply a veneer with good acoustic properties. Being quartered is only for stability and strength. But in this case stability and strength come from the Nomex - so therefore grain orientation does not matter as much.


That's not true. The concept of the double top is that the middle part (nomex) of any beam is doing less work and the outer portions (skins) are doing almost all the work, either in compression or tension. The nomex just has to hold the two skins apart and keep them from creeping or shearing. It's used because it's lighter in weight than solid wood and works fine for the job it has to do. But it provides almost no stiffness of it's own. I know that the skins take up almost all the tensile and compressive loads but I'm unclear about how the lateral stiffness of the skins would effect the lateral stiffness of the top.
Author:  John Mayes [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
I would never use a top that far off quarter. It takes a heck of a lot of work to complete a instrument why start off behind the 8 ball with a inferior top? That far off quarter the stability suffers and the stiffness is probably a joke. To make it anywhere near as stiff as it "should" be would take a REALLY thick top. Thick, floppy top..... hmm. No thanks. Return the wood. You shouldn't have to foot the bill for shipping to or from.
Author:  John A [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
Kent -

You may be right - I stand corrected if that is the case. I do know that the skins are merely skins - and so thin that I can't imagine that the quartered vs rift sawn makes much difference - they will both be equally as weak or strong.

Does anyone else know ? this might be a good topic for another thread.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
I have some of those tops, and while they tap like a bell, they really do have an incredible amount of cross grain flexibility. I, like you, chose not to go through the return process. Hardly worth the effort and cost at the price. I will use them for experimentation, not for use in a guitar that I might sell, or even give away.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
I agree with Laurent !

Mike
Author:  Colin North [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
Thanks guys, seller contacted with photos, and says he will refund, including postage both ways.
No quibble at all.
Author:  Daniel Minard [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
Colin; I think it was classy of you, not to mention the buyer by name. Everyone can blow it, once in a while. The fact that he's willing to fix the problem, with no expense to you, is the important part.
I think it's a good idea to be fussy with wood purchases. The cutters & graders will learn to improve their methods only if they know there's a problem. (And it hits them in the pocketbook)
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
Daniel Minard wrote:
Colin; I think it was classy of you, not to mention the buyer by name. Everyone can blow it, once in a while. The fact that he's willing to fix the problem, with no expense to you, is the important part.
I think it's a good idea to be fussy with wood purchases. The cutters & graders will learn to improve their methods only if they know there's a problem. (And it hits them in the pocketbook)



I realize that it's "nice to be nice", and perhaps not wise to mention names publicly for fear of incurring some sort of retaliatory lawsuit, but really.....
Is there anybody who has ever sawn wood for guitar tops and sold it that wasn't aware of the importance of quarter-sawing (aka vertical grain) ??? Everything you read about tops-everywhere- mentions vertical grain. So if the grain is really that far off-vertical, it's no innocent mistake to 'not mention it' before the sale is completed. Perhaps only a few buyers have the knowledge to complain, so the seller can go on with this practice and still make money.

One observation- sometimes it can be tricky to distinguish the cross-cut (circular) saw marks from the grain lines in a low-res photo. Once the wood is in hand a chisel/plane/fine sanding block clears up the situation, so that's obviously not the case in this situation.

It's pretty easy to find dead-vertical grained cedar at a pretty low price, though the color may be a bit uneven. I wouldn't waste time with rift-sawn top wood, even for a doubletop. However, I've seen a fair bit of vertical grain stuff with low cross-grain stiffness, so nothing beats some measurements (deflection and density at least) before cutting that rosette channel.

Cheers
John
Author:  alan stassforth [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
Well, I know I'm late here, but,
a guitar top should be hand split, like Shane does it.
I saw his video on processing guitar tops.
No runout.
I learned about runout when I bought a very tight grained piece of doug fir from a big lumber yard,
super tight grain, very well quartered,
I ran it through the planer, aaacckkk!
that piece of wood had about a 70 degree runout.
I couldn't believe it.
It broke easily when bent a in a test.
Buy from a known guitar wood supplier.
Shane, Allied, LMI, and the other sponsors on this site.
Unless you really know what you're buying.

My advice..
Author:  Colin North [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
[quote="Alexandru Marian"]When you join them they will be ///|//// unless you flip one and ruin the bookmatch.
quote]
Do you know after I read you post I had to get a piece of paper with diagonal stripes and tear it in half to check??
You're correct of course.
Author:  Dave Rickard [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
You know, I bought some of that about a year ago.
Thought I was okay considering the source.
So I just put it on the shelf.
I think I'd better go take a closer look to see if I got stung also!
Author:  Dave Rickard [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Advice appreciated!!
Checked them out last night.
Tight grain and near perfect quarter sawn.
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