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| Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=29275 |
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| Author: | WendyW [ Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
What method do you use to size the veneers for making classical rosette tiles so they are all the same thickness? Also, has anyone used the rosette sticks that LMI sells? I'm trying to decide which way to go on my first tile rosette. Thanks, Wendy |
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| Author: | MaxBishop [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
I have been doing a lot of this lately and have completed my first few rosettes. I thickness my veneers on my powermax 16/32 drum sander. I made a "sled" out of MDF to carry the veneer. I got this approach from Robert Ruck. The sled is about 8" wide and as long as you need for the size veneer sheets you will be using. Mark up the surface of the sled with a pencil and run it through the drum sander till all the marks disappear to true the surface. I use this method on my veneer sheets, which are roughly 0.60 mm thick to arrive at 0.50 mm plus or minus 0.02 mm. Let me know if you need more information. Good luck, Max |
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| Author: | MaxBishop [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
Forgot to mention - I would use 100 or 120 grit. |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
I thickness mine with a Gilbert Disk sander on my drill press. I work strips that are about 1/2 - 3/4" wide, then cut to shorter lengths for making logs. Generally I work with thicknesses of about 0.5 mm in my tiles, but they are simple, and don't require more detail than that. |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
A draw scraper works well on individual strips. I made one by cutting an open ended slot in a piece of aluminium plate, and mounting a couple of jointer knives on it. Set them so that they are far enough apart at the open end to get the veneer strip in easily, and have them converge until they nearly touch. Then you can draw strips through and remove material a bit at a time. You stop when you get to the thickness you need. Usually I just scrape a leaf of veneer on a nice level surface. It doesn't take all that long to reduce most veneers to a uniform .5mm or whatever. If I'm making my own veneer out of somethnig I can't get commercially I'll use the drill press planer to get a bandsawn piece close, say to .6-.8mm, and work it down from there. |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
Wendy if you look at the woods page of my website http://www.collinsguitars.com/woods.html you'll see a spalted rose(the second one down) that uses LMI rosette sticks as purfling lines around the old German purfs. I used in the rose. I get the 1mm or larger ones for these.  Mike |
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| Author: | WendyW [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
Thankyou all for the answers, and the pictures Mike. I'm going to give it a try with my 16/32 this weekend, since I don't have a Gilbert disc sander. I've used a sled for soundboards on occasion, but I never thought about being able to go that thin with it. Is the reason nobody uses the sticks from LMI for the mosaic tiles because the smallest is .8mm? It just seems like it would save a lot of gluing and slicing veneers. Thanks all, Wendy |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
I do use the LMI sticks. They are great. I don't yet have a reliable method to make them myself. |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
Here's a cheap sizer/compresser you can use on strips that can be made for about $30. viewtopic.php?f=10117&t=23475 |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
2 very useful tips. I've seen several of these sizing jigs before; i always thought they are useful for sizing veneer but I guess one could draw square sticks with it too. Second, I always wanted a cheap chisel-plane for working the back side of headstocks 
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| Author: | WendyW [ Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
Well I thinned some bloodwood veneer to .3mm this weekend with my thickness sander using a sled. It worked very well, except that the ends came out thinner than the rest, so next time I will know to cut my strips longer than needed. I also got some of the rosette sticks from LMI and will try gluing up a log this weekend. Now that I see how small they are, I can understand why it would be easier to work with veneer and slice and reglue to make tiles. Alexandru, what type of glue do you use when you glue up the sticks. I was planning on using Titebond, but now that I see how small the sticks are I'm wondering if it would be easier to line up a row and CA glue it? Last question; Does anyone have a good source for colored veneers? Thanks, Wendy |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
Wendy; do you want to use these veneers for the "central theme" or the outer & inner rings? If your going for the center ones then I'd leave them at least 2.5-3mm. Then inlay them and scrape or sand down to the top . Mike |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
From what I've seen and read mostly eveyone uses a white glue or titebond for logs. |
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| Author: | WendyW [ Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
Actually Mike, for this guitar I was thinning the veneer to .3mm for a wheat pattern or rope, using .3mm bloodwood and .6mm black, and I will try to use the rosette sticks to make tiles for the central ring. I was thinking also of using the wheat as a purfling around the edges of the top. In the future I would like to make a rosette tile log using colored veneers, so I am wondering where is a good supply for colored veneers. Up until now I have either purchased rosettes or made something out of burl, so I am just trying to learn to make mosaic tiles. Thanks, Wendy |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
colored veneers ! http://www.constantines.com http://www.gurianinstruments.com http://www.theveneerstore.com I hope this helps you some ! Mike
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
I use fish glue. It has a very long open time so I can take all the time I need to nicely seat each stick in the press. It is a simple flat wooden piece lined with paper, to which I clamp a square block-fence. I seat the sticks one by one in the corner, then put a lid-press of the same exact width as the final log, press it lightly, seat the other side fence, press it, start clamping and tighten everything. It will take a while to cure (allow at least 24h, better 48) and take lots of care when dissembling (I help myself with a very thin veneering knife). I prefer to line the pieces with paper-sticky-tape, as plastic will not allow water to pass. I tried CA too once but I hated it. Maybe it would work better by making the full log then flooding with thin CA but I am sticking to fish. This is my current model made with LMI sticks. The clothes pin fix a slight delamination, that's what happens when rushing dis-assembly. And the destroyed outer black ring of the second pic shows what happens when you make the channel too tight PS whatever purfling scheme you choose, it should be present around the center ring of the rosette too, at least in my book of "100% correct CG design". |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
The method I now use, which I learned from, well yes, Mike Collins, is to flood the rosette after installed dry, with thinned fish glue. It wicks in and under the rosette, and makes a nice glue in without issue. Don't know if I'll ever change, now that he told me about that. |
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| Author: | MaxBishop [ Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
Wendy, I have been using colored veneers from Madinter Trade in Spain. They are Sycamore dyed black, red, green, blue, yellow and natural. They com in ~ 0.5 mm thickness and 83 cm length sheets - priced by square meter. Check out their website at www.madinter.com. I have found them to be of excellent quality. The problem is the cost of shipment to the US. I plan to order some in a week or so. So if you want to combine an order with mine to save on shipping PM me. Best wishes, Max |
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| Author: | WendyW [ Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
Wow, so many helpful answers this morning. Mike, thanks for the colored veneer sources and Max, I appreciate the offer about going in on an order, but I have to use what I have before I can spend any more money at the moment. Next question, since everyone seems to be using fish glue, is where to buy it, and how thin do you make it to flood the rosette? And Alexandru, thanks for the press idea. I agree about the design and I was planning on having the wheat around the central tiles in the rosette as well as purfling around the top. Thanks everyone for all your help. Wendy |
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| Author: | WendyW [ Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
OK, I found fish glue at Lee Valley so, unless this is not a good brand to use, I just need to know how thin you make it to flood rosettes and is it thinned with water? I appreciate everyone's patience with all my many questions on this topic! |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
Wendy ; I buy it by the gallon from the maker. Let me send you some ! No charge. Send me a mailing address and I'll get it in the mail in a couple of days! Mike |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
Wendy ; I buy it by the gallon from the maker. Visit their site for info. www.norlandproducts.com/fishgelatin Let me send you some ! No charge. Send me a mailing address and I'll get it in the mail in a couple of days! Mike |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
Something smells fishy to me! 
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
I use HHG to make up endgrain tiles. For each layer you hold the stack between your thumb and forefinger, and fan them out. Paint on the HHG, and collapse the fan. Use your fingers to press things together a little and draw them out until the glue starts to gel, and then just put the layer down on a piece of plastic so that it's nice and flat. Once the glue gels it has some strength, and it will hold everything in place as it dries. In drying, the glue shrinks, and pulls the layer in as nicely as you could with clamps. I like to flip the layers over after a half hour or so to allow the other side to dry quicker. If it ends up warping a little, you can put on a _little_ water, and warm it up a bit, to soften the glue, and then allow it to dry flat. Obviously you scrape/plane/sand the layers down to the right thickness (I start with sticks about 1.5mm wide and .5 thick usually, so the layer needs to be taken to .5 thick), and then use the same technique to put the layers together to make a log. I suppose you could use white glue or Titebond for this, but I find HHG easier, and less of a sticky mess. Fish glue might not work as well this way since it doesn't gel. |
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| Author: | Chris Paulick [ Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sizing veneer for classical rosette tiles |
Alan, I'm still hoping you will some day make a DVD on your technic for making your basket weave rosettes. Do you ever have any classes on your technic? |
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