| Official Luthiers Forum! http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/ |
|
| pinless bridge http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=29102 |
Page 1 of 2 |
| Author: | Mark Groza [ Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | pinless bridge |
I'm going to build a pinless bridge for the next guitar and would like to see pictures of your pinless bridges. Also any input on design suggestions is also welcome. Thanks! |
|
| Author: | Tom West [ Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
Mark: Just think you should give consideration of NOT having the strings go through holes in the bridge. Having the strings so they can't be detached at the bridge end would be a pain to do any saddle work.Have never made a pinless myself but this may not be obvious until too late. Good luck in your design work. Tom |
|
| Author: | Mark Groza [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
Thanks for the responce Tom. I can see where that could be a problem for some. I usually don't pull the pins when working on my saddles anyway. I just loosen the strings at the tuners. I do plan on running the strings through the bridge because it seems that would be a stronger way of doing it with less chance of a cracked bridge. I want the bridge to be all wood, so useing steel pins is out of the mix. I'm also considering useing a non-oily wood to get better adhesion as well. So any suggestions on wood types is welcomed in this post too. |
|
| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
What is supposed to be the advantage of a pinless bridge? |
|
| Author: | murrmac [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
My idea of the ultimate guitar from hell would have a pinless bridge at one end of the string and a zero fret at the other. Beyond the zero fret there would be an inwardly tapered headstock ... |
|
| Author: | Alain Moisan [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
Howard Klepper wrote: What is supposed to be the advantage of a pinless bridge? Well, hum... no pins? |
|
| Author: | murrmac [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
Alain Moisan wrote: Howard Klepper wrote: What is supposed to be the advantage of a pinless bridge? Well, hum... no pins? Well, yeeeessss...and the advantage of "no pins" is ....????? |
|
| Author: | Lars Stahl [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
I think its more a matter of taste than advantage in other words a choice in Design !! ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") So for those choosing a pinless bridge their mind likes that design better than pins  Howard what is the advantage of making a "checkered guitar" ( really cool guitar, that to is design ) Lars |
|
| Author: | murrmac [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
Lars Stahl wrote: Howard what is the advantage of making a "checkered guitar" Lars Not wishing to preempt Howard, but I would say that the main advantage is that you have a client willing to pay a huge amount of cash for the design. Which design, as you say, is very cool. |
|
| Author: | Mark Groza [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
Actualy i see advantages. No holes drilled through the top or bridge plate with less places to start a crack. also more surface area on the bridge bottom for glue. Also less parts(no pins),so less weight at the bridge as well. I've had others tell me that there is a volume increase too. Not for the design although the design would look cleaner and more modern. |
|
| Author: | Josh H [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
I know there is a lot of guys that use pinless bridges, but I never have and never will. If the pinless bridge is properly executed and the guitar is well cared for then all will likely be fine. But I've seen a number of really high-end luthier built guitars that have had problems with pinless bridges. The problem I've seen most that has tuned me off from using them is seeing guitars where the bridge joint has let go. From what I have observed when the joint lets go the potential damage is a lot greater with a pinless bridge. In a few cases I've seen the pinless bridge has pulled strips of the top up when the joint let go. The result it a big mess. The way I see it is that with a pinned bridge you have the strings anchored to the inside of the top. The stress is not entirely on the glue joint like it is with a pin bridge. If the guitar is exposed to heat, or for some reason the joint lets go, a pinned bridge will likely pull up a bit but not come right off the top. The pinless bridges on the other hand will pull right up, and even off when exposed to the same scenario. I figure why risk the extra damage. That explanation is not very scientific and I don't know if it made sense, but I don't see the structural benefits to pinless. In my opinion the benefit of additional gluing surface from not having pins is canceled by the additional stress on the glue joint. Josh |
|
| Author: | Robbie_McD [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
I just worked on a Takamine with a pinless bridge: Attachment: Capture.JPG
|
|
| Author: | Parser [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
Hey Josh, I think that's a great way to describe the stresses on the bridge; I'd also agree that there seems to be a good advantage in terms of stress reduction to using a standard pinned bridge. Trev |
|
| Author: | Mark Groza [ Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
I don't think i'll have a problem with a glue joint failing on a pinless bridge. I've seen them used on 7 string acoustics. I use light strings on my 6 string acoustics anyway and don't put them in an enviornment that would cause failure. I also don't plan on useing oily wood bridges like most that come up. |
|
| Author: | murrmac [ Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
Filippo Morelli wrote: I have a pinless bridge guitar. I'm not much of a pin fan. They do string up fast; no fooling with strings slipping around and settling in. Filippo that is an interesting bridge design, Filippo, but you aren't getting the optimum string breakover angle with it, are you ? I have no doubt you could use the same principle with the bridge slightly redesigned, in order to increase the breakover angle. |
|
| Author: | Javaca [ Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
Take a look at the Lowden brides:   I haven't made pinless bridges myself on steelstrings. Pinless but in this case also a little bit pointless... 
|
|
| Author: | CWLiu [ Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
Filippo Morelli wrote: I have a pinless bridge guitar. I'm not much of a pin fan. They do string up fast; no fooling with strings slipping around and settling in. Filippo That birdge looks so unique and beautiful! Whose work is this? |
|
| Author: | Mike K [ Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
I do pinless bridges... Attachment: pinless_1.jpg Attachment: pinless_2.jpg -Mike |
|
| Author: | DennisK [ Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
Seems to me the advantage of pinless (besides easy string changes) is that you can skip the bridge plate entirely and stick a lattice under there. No pins, no hardwood, super light. That said, I'm afraid of them. Regular bridge comes loose, probably the worst that will happen is strings and pins flying. A pinless bridge launched by all 6 strings worth of force at once could do some serious damage to whatever it hits. Strings through holes looks cooler to me, but the other way does seem more convenient. Wouldn't you have to clip the gangled up ends of strings off before removing them from a through-holes pinless bridge? I guess you'd need the nippers out to clip the ends off the new strings anyway, so maybe not too terribly inconvenient. |
|
| Author: | Mark Groza [ Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
Mike K wrote: I do pinless bridges... Attachment: pinless_1.jpg Attachment: pinless_2.jpg -Mike Wow! Mike that is a nice looking bridge. I see you also use the transparent pick guard like i do as well. Good looking guitar you have there.
|
|
| Author: | Alain Moisan [ Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
murrmac wrote: Alain Moisan wrote: Howard Klepper wrote: What is supposed to be the advantage of a pinless bridge? Well, hum... no pins? Well, yeeeessss...and the advantage of "no pins" is ....????? Well, not having to deal with pins. That's it. I know it sounds thin for an explanation, but that's really all I see to it. That said, I don't do pinless bridge for the extact reasons Josh explained quite well and clearly. |
|
| Author: | Hesh [ Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
Mark here is another pic of the same bridge that I sent you earlier. This time it shows the entire guitar. Harmony Sovereigns (poor man's D-18 from the 60's) had a BRW pinless bridge. This is one of two Sovereigns that were brought back to life in a project that I worked on. The saddle is being replaced and had been glued in so it had to be routed out. The new saddle is just roughed in and looking rather high... and massive but when it reached it's final shape and height it looked a lot better. Anyway both of the Sovereigns that I worked on had pinless bridges that had been on for nearly 50 years and it was rather obvious too that these guitars did not have very good care. Can't speak to advantages, if any, of a pinless bridge but I can address the argument that they bridges may not stay put. These two most certainly did. Attachment: DSC03191.jpg Attachment: DSC03192.jpg Sorry I didn't read every reply but Mike Doolin uses pinless bridge designs too. |
|
| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
Mike, I like it too. Is that POC/Alaskan cypress rather than spruce? |
|
| Author: | Mike K [ Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
Alexandru Marian wrote: Mike, I like it too. Is that POC/Alaskan cypress rather than spruce? Thanks. It's just sitka though -- I think it's a combination of the picture and french polishing with a darker shellac (seedlac I think) that makes it look a bit different. -Mike |
|
| Author: | Josh H [ Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pinless bridge |
Hi Filippo, I'll see if I can clarify some of what I'm said. I know I'm a lot less scientific in my approach to building than many other luthiers. I tend to think of my approach to building as being a common sense approach, that being what makes sense to me. And when I try and convey my thoughts on a certain aspect of building I know they are not always that clear. I also don't want to set myself up as a bridge fail expert, as I'm not. But I have seen a lot of bridge failures come through my shop over the years for repair. The number of high-end luthier bridge failures I've seen has only been a handful. Like I said the two factors for a pinless bridge working are proper execution (good fit to the top and properly glued) and then the guitar being properly cared for. In the luthier built bridge failures I have observed my conclusions has been that the guitar has not been properly cared for. In some case I know (and have great respect for) these builders. Yes, I am referring to the glue joint failing when I am talking about the bridge letting go. As I don't always know what led to the damage when a guitar crosses my bench I sometimes have to speculate a bit. Nearly every time I've seen a bridge failure on a well built guitar it is as a result of heat damage. On the pinless bridge guitars where I have observed additional top damage it seems that as the glue softens with the heat it begins to let go in some spots but not others. It eventually reaches a point where most of the glue is soft enough for the bridge to pull up. But in those few spots where the glue remains more tacky it pulls up wood fibbers as the bridge lifts off the top. I haven't observed this additional damage with pinned bridges. Since there is nothing preventing a pinless bridge from lifting once the glue lets go they will lift up, and in a number of cases I have seen come right off the top. What I've concluded over the years is that if you build enough guitar eventually some of them are going to be exposed to improper care. They'll get left in hot cars, they'll dry out when the customer doesn't humidify properly, or any number of things. While I don't have much control over what happens when the guitar leaves my shop, if there are certain construction methods that can minimize potential damage I try to implement them. When It comes to bridges I decided a while back that I would never build a pinless bridge. I've observed pinned bridges where the glue joint has failed, but I don't think I have ever seen one where the bridge came right off the top. When a pinned bridge does come up I haven't observed significant top damage as a result of the glue joint failure. On the other hand I've observed several cases of pinless bridges coming right off the guitars and damaging the top in the process. I want to minimize the risk of having to fix those type of repairs on my guitars in the future. Another practical reason I don't like a pinless bridge is because they are a pain to work on for setups and that type of thing (I'm talking about string through bridge designs). Hope helps clarify what I was trying to say. I know there are a lot of great builders who only use pines bridges and that is fine. Its just not for me and so you will never see one on my guitars (at least not a steel string). Josh |
|
| Page 1 of 2 | All times are UTC - 5 hours |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|