| Official Luthiers Forum! http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/ |
|
| Cocobolo Reaction http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=28927 |
Page 1 of 2 |
| Author: | tim88 [ Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Cocobolo Reaction |
I bought some cocobolo a couple of weeks ago. I had it resawed and brought it home. Ran a piece through the thickness sander to get an idea of how it would look. Arranged with Chris V to buy some snakewood binding to go with it. We discussed it both think it will look incredible. Everything was in the works. NO PROBLEMS! Spent yesterday routing out the forms for my side bender. 7 layers of 3/4" mdf and ply, alternating (think I will have to add one more layer). All the routing make an incredible mess as you can imagine. So Today after church I decided to clean up the shop. Everything was fine until I got to the thickness sander and started dusting it off. The last thing I had ran through it was the coco. I started coughing and sneezing. My lungs and throat felt like they were burning. My wife is a nurse and had me take a couple of benedryl immediately and 2 more 4 hours later. It has been almost 8 hours now and I am just starting to feel like it is subsiding. I had heard of the poison ivy type skin rash that others have gotten. I am not allergic to poison ivy, oak or any of the other more common allergies so I figured I would be ok. After sanding it and having no reaction I thought I was good to go. I had never heard anyone mention of the breathing problems like I experienced today. I won't even consider taking a chance with it again. I have it moved out to the main shop wrapped in a garbage bag and will probably see if John Mayes wants it since he lives close by. Me and my wife opened all the doors and windows and have cleaned everything from top to bottom. Wiped it all down with kitchen cleaner with bleach. Is there anything else I need to do or should this suffice. This stuff is nothing to fool with |
|
| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
Get into the habit of wearing a good dust mask anytime your are making or stirring up dust. Which is most of the time you are in the shop. |
|
| Author: | Haans [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
While cleaning the shop last week, I chopped up a bunch of coco scrap and some ribs and tossed it all in the garbage. I have two sets left, and won't use them soon. I'll never buy it again. |
|
| Author: | Ti-Roux [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
Haans wrote: While cleaning the shop last week, I chopped up a bunch of coco scrap and some ribs and tossed it all in the garbage. I have two sets left, and won't use them soon. I'll never buy it again. If you're going to throw away more coco, please give it to me instead   Always wear a mask, with any kind of wood ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") Francis |
|
| Author: | Miketobey [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
While some of us work with others present, at least near the shop, if not in it, I live and work very alone. So far my allergy has been limited to spalted mango and it was the common histamine reaction and rash. I am sure you discussed this with your wife, but your reaction is much more serious. The two of you should go to a trustworthy doctor and arrange a scrip for an epi-pen. I firmly believe that when we work regularly with exotics, we need to be prepared for the worst-if you have a FP doctor who trusts you and will spend some teaching time with you, if the "collective you" have had such reactions, odds are the next will be worse and closure of the airway from the swelling can realistically lead to death and your doctor should train you for epi-pen use and prescribe. Having said that, I am on "next time could be fatal" with bee stings(52 cicada killer wasp stings when 10(ER and hospital) and last sting on wrist produced a boil-like reaction about 1 1/4" in diameter, raised above the surface around 1/2" and deep red-purple, and as it resorbed, it also opened and necrotic fluid copiously leaked)- My house is so "discombobulated" I have no idea where the epi is. Close call two weeks ago when "landlady"(not to be confused with the "french maid") and I were doing landscape clean up and dislodged a wasp nest from under a deck rail and she was stunned when I ran like he-l. After assuring her I was not just a sissy, she added a wasp squirter to some other stuff for the hardware store errand. SO, I'll practice what I have preached and see my FP doc and get a new scrip. I always have benadryl around, but I would be really lucky if it saved me from bee sting. One of the court reporters here is allergic to perfume- like scents and is at that "fatal reaction" stage-when she knows about a certain hearing coming up, she calls the lawyers to ask them to arrange for no perfume if a female is appearing(oddly, men's aftershaves don't-haven't triggered). Since there are many hearings which are not that firmly scheduled, I have been there for two epi uses right in the court room-it is frightening and amazing at the same time. Please think seriously about this. |
|
| Author: | tim88 [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
Filippo, have to admit I had no clue what a Neti pot was. I do now though and will get one today. I woke up with my throat still not feeling "right". Kind of has a burn in it, if that makes sense. My next purchase is going to be an air filtration system. Anybody have any recommendations? And a trip to the doctor for an epi! Chris, yes I still want the snakewood. Sorry John, it doesn't automatically go with the Coco just because thats what I ordered it for. I'm SURE I will find a use for it, lol.
|
|
| Author: | Haans [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
What Mike Toby said. I wouldn't give the stuff away to anyone. You can clean all you want, wear any kind of mask you want, have all the air scrubbers, downdraft sanding tables, etc. You will still inhale the dust and it ***IS*** accumulative. Even if it made the holy grail of guitars (and it doesn't), I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. It's just not worth the health risk. This business is bad enough for your health without dangerous woods. |
|
| Author: | woody b [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
Haans wrote: What Mike Toby said. I wouldn't give the stuff away to anyone. You can clean all you want, wear any kind of mask you want, have all the air scrubbers, downdraft sanding tables, etc. You will still inhale the dust and it ***IS*** accumulative. Even if it made the holy grail of guitars (and it doesn't), I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. It's just not worth the health risk. This business is bad enough for your health without dangerous woods. Agreed, but I think woods that are dangerous for some people may not be for others. I had a similar experience to Tims when re sawing some Coco. I don't keep a clean shop, but it was 5 minutes or so after I started sawing it. My dust collector is outside, and is hooked to my bandsaw, but there's still dust. My Dad and my Wife cleaned all the Cocobolo and dust out of my shop. There's enough builders using Cocobolo, so I think the guitar world will be fine if I don't use any. I had a skin rash when working with Lacewood (Grevillia robusta), but that was due to bad habits, and a messy shop. I've used it since with no problems. |
|
| Author: | Hesh [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
For the years that I have participated on the OLF every so often we hear about this happening to one of our friends... Nonetheless it's good with new people joining all the time to revisit these possibilities AND what we can do to avoid being injured. Six years ago I bought some coco and another set more recently. But every time I think about building with these sets someone starts a thread like this one and it scares me away from using my coco... If nothing else my coco is aging nicely...  Glad to hear that you are now OK Tim and remember that the very nature of sensitizers, what coco and epoxy are to some, is that the reactions can get far worse the second time around. |
|
| Author: | tim88 [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
I guess I have had a pretty laid back attitude as far as dust and pollutants in the air since I started building. This weekend has been an eyeopener for me. I would clean the shop every couple of weeks in the past. Not really too worried about it because it would always be dirty again in a couple of hours. I now understand why some of you are so fanatical about your shop cleanliness. After the research I have done this morning on the effects of working with some exotic woods and just the hazards of breathing wood dust alone, I am moving over to the fanatical camp myself and will be very rigid in keeping my shop clean from now on, and will install an air filtration system just as soon as possible. Being new to guitar building and wood working in general I had no idea the dangers. I'm wondering if we should have some kind of sticky on the forum to alert new builders to some of the hazards? John Mayes told me he is not allergic to coco and said he would be more than happy to take it off my hands. I figure it's pretty nice of him to be so worried about my health that he would let me dump this stuff off on him.  . He gave me a nice drum sander earlier in the year so I don't mind sending it his way>
|
|
| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
I had no issues with Cocobolo at all. And I have Asthma, and am allergic to all kinds of stuff, but apparently, not Cocobolo, yet. I do not create tons of dust, as I thickness with a plane, but I do some sanding, but mostly with a sanding disk on the drill press for final thicknessing, and I catch most of that, and with a ROS with a vacuum hooked up to it. When I hand sand I try to vacuum up the dust immediately, and wipe with a microfiber cloth. That said, I had the dust all over me more than once, and had no reactions. Again, though, that's just me. We are all different. If I walk into a department store where they are spritzing perfume on people, it'll shut my breathing down in a heart-beat. |
|
| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
Filippo Morelli wrote: Folks some times get a chuckle out of how clean my shop is. Here's yet one more reason why. Yes Coco can have that kind of reaction. I run 1 micron dust collection, a HEPA based shop vac. Coco can be used but requires safety steps. I also wear nitrile gloves as I've found my hands to itch. As well a long sleeve t-shirt. Finally think about how you are processing the wood. Minimize methods that spew stuff everywhere. When cleaning equipment make sure you are wearing your safety equipment/clothing. When you're done with the clothes, put them in the wash. Final advice - learn to use a Neti pot. Filippo You can bypass the Neti pot and just buy saline nasal wash in a squeeze bottle at the drug store. Convenient, even if it is like buying bottled water. Tilt your head sideways and squeeze into whichever nostril is on top so you are getting a stream rather than a mist, and squirt until it runs out the other nostril. Do both sides. Good thing to do after leaving the shop each day (even though I have gotten lax about it). If there is any tinge of brown in what runs out, you must use a different and better dust mask. I have a lot of great coco (from the "Churchbell" log), and so far so good. |
|
| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
I use the NeilMed Sinus Rinse, twice a day, every day. Morning and night. It really helps keep my passages open, and I've found I sleep better. I use the one that's like a Turkey Baster, rather than the one that's like a pitcher. Also the NeilMed packets are PH neutral and very gentle on your sinuses. Some of those things are very drying to your sinus walls. If you need stronger you can use two packets. It's all pre-measured, and relatively inexpensive. 100 packets is about $10 - 12, depending on where you buy it. I think the kit which comes with 50 packets is abut $11.00. |
|
| Author: | Lars Stahl [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
Haans, sell the set to me Lars |
|
| Author: | DannyV [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
[/quote] Tilt your head sideways and squeeze into whichever nostril is on top so you are getting a stream rather than a mist, and squirt until it runs out the other nostril. Do both sides. [/quote] EUWWWWWW! I don't care how nice any wood might make a guitar sound. If it comes to that, I'll find something else that should sound pretty good. You also forgot about the nose plugs when sanding Mexican Poo Wood. I still enjoy woodworking enough to use something that doesn't offend my offertory scenes so much. Not to mention what it does to you sanding belts. It's a good thing I always get outbid on EBay. That being said, I've sure seen, and played, some pretty spectacular Coco guitars. Danny |
|
| Author: | Jody [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
Long term exposure to any wood dust can cause damage to your lungs with irreversable consequences! dont think because you dont have an immediate and severe reaction that your going to be fine in the long term with no problems,and that breathing apparatus is not needed . cleaning of your sinus cavities still leaves the dust in your lungs. and thats not even talking about the dust from MDF , which is mostly chemicly bound wood fibers. after working in carpentry most of my life , I am sorry I didnt learn this much sooner myself. Jody |
|
| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
DannyV wrote: Tilt your head sideways and squeeze into whichever nostril is on top so you are getting a stream rather than a mist, and squirt until it runs out the other nostril. Do both sides. [/quote] EUWWWWWW! I don't care how nice any wood might make a guitar sound. If it comes to that, I'll find something else that should sound pretty good. You also forgot about the nose plugs when sanding Mexican Poo Wood. I still enjoy woodworking enough to use something that doesn't offend my offertory scenes so much. Not to mention what it does to you sanding belts. It's a good thing I always get outbid on EBay. That being said, I've sure seen, and played, some pretty spectacular Coco guitars. Danny[/quote] I was talking about what you should do when working with any kind of wood dust. It's all bad. If you that is disgusting, try naso-pharyngeal cancer. |
|
| Author: | Laurent Brondel [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
A nose wash is basic care for anybody working in a dusty environment. There's no perfect dust mask, dust collector or air system that sucks everything that's being sawed, sanded or scraped. I'm pretty fanatical about keeping a fairly clean shop, if there is dust on the floor, benches and machines, you're breathing it, pure and simple. The most dangerous dust are the smallest particles we do not see. I vacuum often during a day of work, and the air filter is on most of the time. So far I have no averse reaction to cocobolo, and I use a fair amount. I am more sensitive to ebony dust, any ebony. No bad reaction, but an irritating "tinge", I am afraid it will get worse. The thing about allergies being cumulative is not a joke. I never liked the smell of CA, but a few months ago I had serious asthma symptoms after using medium CA to glue a few things: tight lungs, tearing eyes, runny nose, difficulty in breathing and extreme tiredness. It lasted all day and kept me out of the shop. I was fine the following morning, but I definitely developed an averse reaction to CA with time. Apparently CA is an irritant, but non-toxic, I hope it is true. |
|
| Author: | Randolph [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
All great suggestions. I want to echo the saline wash and neti pot ideas. It is the microscopic particles on the nasal linings that fire off a histamine reaction. It only makes sense to wash them out of there instead of letting them sit for hours on end recreating reaction after reaction. A neti pot is a more thorough solution but also not as convenient as the saline spray. Those two have changed my relationship with my shop. |
|
| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
Laurent Brondel wrote: I never liked the smell of CA, but a few months ago I had serious asthma symptoms after using medium CA to glue a few things: tight lungs, tearing eyes, runny nose, difficulty in breathing and extreme tiredness. It lasted all day and kept me out of the shop. I was fine the following morning, but I definitely developed an averse reaction to CA with time. Apparently CA is an irritant, but non-toxic, I hope it is true. It puts me down for three days. It's happened more than once. Comes on in a delayed reaction which takes about 5 or 6 hours to start, then starts gradually, and by the next day, I'm huffing on an inhaler all day and all night for the next two days. Then it begins to relax, and the third day, you can feel it going away. It's like having a bad respiratory flu for those three days, that is accompanied by severe asthma reactions. Benedryl does help, but is not a cure. |
|
| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
Quit using it Waddy. I know it is a wonderful help for quickly fixing various issues in dark wood, but fish glue does the job just as well. |
|
| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
I rarely use it now, and when I do, I wear a respirator, and leave the shop for a while. I keep fans running all the time, and once it's gassed off, there is no more risk. The times I've had a problem were when I was flooding Rosettes with it, and doing binding with it. The first time, I just thought I was sick. It was the second time that I realized what had happened. The delayed reaction caught me off guard. |
|
| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
WaddyThomson wrote: Laurent Brondel wrote: I never liked the smell of CA, but a few months ago I had serious asthma symptoms after using medium CA to glue a few things: tight lungs, tearing eyes, runny nose, difficulty in breathing and extreme tiredness. It lasted all day and kept me out of the shop. I was fine the following morning, but I definitely developed an averse reaction to CA with time. Apparently CA is an irritant, but non-toxic, I hope it is true. It puts me down for three days. It's happened more than once. Comes on in a delayed reaction which takes about 5 or 6 hours to start, then starts gradually, and by the next day, I'm huffing on an inhaler all day and all night for the next two days. Then it begins to relax, and the third day, you can feel it going away. It's like having a bad respiratory flu for those three days, that is accompanied by severe asthma reactions. Benedryl does help, but is not a cure. Waddy, I got all your tolerance for CA and a bunch of other peoples' too. I could swim in the stuff, if I didn't stick to the container when I came out. I'm thinking of using it for pore filling on the ongoing Romanillos #1. As it is, that guitar's back is almost certainly joined with CA (I can't remember). It's surprising what I'm allergic to - turpentine. I used to paint in oils, and it took me about a week to realize I had to switch to mineral spirits instead of turpentine as a solvent/medium. At this point, the only thing that occasionally bothers me in luthiery is WRC. |
|
| Author: | Randolph [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
I don't use CA unless I have a fan behind me blowing the fumes away from me. I have had really good results with this really simple step. It takes about 60 seconds to set up the fan but is way well worth it. I have never had a terrible reaction to the stuff but it can't be good for anybody no matter what. |
|
| Author: | Kent Chasson [ Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cocobolo Reaction |
For CA I tried an exhaust fan with a fan blowing fumes toward the exhaust, while wearing a respirator. My eyes would still get irritated and sometimes I'd still get a delayed systemic reaction like hay fever. I finally started wearing chemical goggles (no vents) and that was better than all the other stuff put together. I was amazed that a very small amount of fumes in my eyes would cause a systemic reaction but it did. Now I mostly I just avoid it altogether but there are still those occasional jobs where nothing else works as well..... |
|
| Page 1 of 2 | All times are UTC - 5 hours |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|