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| pre 1867 model O Martin? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=28838 |
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| Author: | Cecil [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | pre 1867 model O Martin? |
At least that is what I think it is. Here are the particulars: lower bout........13.5 IN. upper bout........9.5 over all length....37.380 The label stamped on the back of the peg head is CF Martin New York. If I am reading the dating information correctly this configuration changed in 1867 to CF Martin & Co New York. The model O was introduced in the 1850s. This places the date of manufacture between 1850 and 1867 as I understand it. There is one other mark on the end of the peg head it is stamped 1910. If I am out in left field on any of this information feel free to correct me. That is the reason for this post. VERIFICATION! Does anyone have any idea on the value of an instrument like this? I told the owner I would try to get him an estimate. I will dig out my camera and post pictures later today. Cecil |
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| Author: | Cecil [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pre 1867 model O Martin? |
Here are some pictures |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pre 1867 model O Martin? |
Inside , what does the kerfing look like. Also what are the stamps on the inside ?. Is there a serial number ? The value of these is not as high as they should be . In the condition it is in now ,maybe 1200 restored 2500 to 3500 in most cases. The valuable ones are from 1923 on up. This is a gut stringed instrument. Also can you see ,is it X braced ? I have an 1857 . Right after that the kerfing went from individual blocks to the strip kerfing . Look close on the top , often there is a signature and date in pencil . This is an 0 size and it is odd to see a pan head 12 fret for this time. Keep us posted . |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pre 1867 model O Martin? |
Only the stamp on the inside center back reinforcing strip can be used for dating. "C.F. Martin New York" pror to 1867, "C.F. Martin &Co. New York" 1867-1898, the earlier stamp was retained in the other locations for some time after. The very earliest serial numbered Martins had those numbers imprinted on the headstock end, though these would have had the Nazareth PA label instead of the earlier one. This looks like a later O-21 on which someone has replaced the back binding and bridge as well as installed gears in place of the original Ivory friction pegs. . The button on the peghead is late 19th century and was not used on Martins from the 1850s. |
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| Author: | Cecil [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pre 1867 model O Martin? |
The stamp on the back strip is not really readable but the spacing would indicate that it originally said CF Martin & Co New York. I looked at the linings and they look to be individual blocks though I can't be sure. It just looks like rosewood between individual pieces. It is X braced and the braces are the most delicate I have ever seen. The height looks to be about 3/8 or less and 1/4 or less thick. I have it for a couple of days to make some tracings and measurements.There is a signature that I cant read upside down and backwards. The date appears to be 1864. I need to get another mirror to reverse the image and a better light. Anything else I should look fore? Cecil |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pre 1867 model O Martin? |
If you can borrow a decent small-body digital camera then you can set it for close up and take good photos of the inside. This will let you sort out some of the details much better than you can with a mirror. |
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pre 1867 model O Martin? |
A little web cam might work to get some photos. |
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| Author: | Jimmy Caldwell [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pre 1867 model O Martin? |
The neck/headstock transition doesn't look right to me. That should be either a v-joint with no volute or a modified bridle joint with a volute (I'm not sure when that transition took place - Maybe D. LaPlante will jump in) and I don't think I've ever seen a Martin from that time period with a paddle head. The photo appears to show a carved volute which would date it sometime after 1915 (I can't explain the button - maybe it was added). The body could be from an earlier timeframe and possibly the neck was replaced at a later date. Lots of inconsistencies - Better pictures would help. |
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pre 1867 model O Martin? |
I worked with a guy who picked up a very early turn of the century 0-21 for $50 at a pawn shop. The bridge was ripped off, but that was all that was major. He got it fixed, and it was a cool. piece. Had to string it with silk and steels. It really didn't sound very good honestly, but it was a cool piece. |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pre 1867 model O Martin? |
As I mentioned, this guitar originally had friction pegs. Many 19th century Martins were made with a "solid" head and pegs. If you take out one of the machines you should still be able to see the rosewood bushing around the hole as long as someone didn't drill it out completely to fit the later tuners. (see Jimmy Caldwells avatar.....) The head and neck are Spanish cedar in two separate pieces, this one looks correct for the period just a very poor photo I think and some damage at the joint with glue residue. The signature you are seeing may be "F.H. Martin" or "F.H.M." which is often seen on guitars made after 1888, which indicates further that this is a late 19th century example. There should also ne a date, not 1860's though but 1880s-90s. The button at the tip of the head is also standard for these guitars during this period, made to attach a cord to along with a "strap button" in the usual location. "Had to string it with silk and steels. It really didn't sound very good honestly, but it was a cool piece." Not surprising, these guitars were strictly made for gut (nylon) and do not sound good if they are overstrung. |
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pre 1867 model O Martin? |
David LaPlante wrote: As I mentioned, this guitar originally had friction pegs. Many 19th century Martins were made with a "solid" head and pegs. If you take out one of the machines you should still be able to see the rosewood bushing around the hole as long as someone didn't drill it out completely to fit the later tuners. (see Jimmy Caldwells avatar.....) The head and neck are Spanish cedar in two separate pieces, this one looks correct for the period just a very poor photo I think and some damage at the joint with glue residue. The signature you are seeing may be "F.H. Martin" or "F.H.M." which is often seen on guitars made after 1888, which indicates further that this is a late 19th century example. There should also ne a date, not 1860's though but 1880s-90s. The button at the tip of the head is also standard for these guitars during this period, made to attach a cord to along with a "strap button" in the usual location. "Had to string it with silk and steels. It really didn't sound very good honestly, but it was a cool piece." Not surprising, these guitars were strictly made for gut (nylon) and do not sound good if they are overstrung. I played it strung with Nylons too... it was even worse. But regardless it was a nifty little piece of history. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pre 1867 model O Martin? |
I have an 1857 0-28 with silk and steel. It is a fantastic little box. I know not all of these are good guitars. |
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| Author: | David LaPlante [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pre 1867 model O Martin? |
The 0 size was big for it's time and even these lightly built antique Martins are still more robust than an excellent quality classical of similar size. Thus they are not always the best soundwise and if in really good shape, one might get away with silk and steels (though I would not recommend them on any 19th century Martin). The smaller body sizes (2 1/2, 2) often sound the best as some of these retained fan bracing instead of the X bracing right up through the end of the 19th century, though I've heard both X and fan braced examples that were quite charming. Attachment: untitled.jpg Attachment: martin1.jpg
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pre 1867 model O Martin? |
Filippo Morelli wrote: John, interesting that it didn't sound particularly good. Wonder why? Small body instruments (in the 0 size range) tend to produce quite a bit of sound. With wood aged like this you'd think the sound is an almost guaranteed knockout. Maybe it had some significant repairs? Filippo Actually it as in quite good shape. Still the original bar frets, good neck angle, the bridge had ripped off but decently cleanly, and was re-glued. It just didn't sound very good. Rather dull actually. |
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| Author: | Cecil [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: pre 1867 model O Martin? |
I got some more light into the box today and more mirrors. The pencil date on the top is 1897 with no signature just the initials A V. With the extra light I was able to read the stamp on the neck block. It Is CF Martin & Co New York. Thanks for all the help guys. This has really been interesting. Cecil |
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