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"Popping the Grain" Under Water Based Finishes
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=28807		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Darryl Young [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  "Popping the Grain" Under Water Based Finishes
Water base (WB) finishes don't seem to "pop the grain" or "wet the wood" or give that "chatoyent, 3-D affect" that some of the oil base finishes do. From reading here, this may be due to the "index of refraction" of the water base finishes not matching that of the wood as well as the oil base finishes do (I'm taking others word on that point).

So folks using WB finishes use other techniques to get the same affect. For example, some folks have switched to using an epoxy pore filler that "pops the grain" and apply a WB finish over that pore filler.If I understood correctly, some folks use sealers that provide the same affect. Maybe there are other techniques, not sure.

So how do you achive this effect using WB finishes? Would you mind sharing your technique and the brand of pore filler/sealer/whatever you use that have given your best results?

Thanks!
Author:  Matthew Jenkins [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Popping the Grain" Under Water Based Finishes
Hi Darryl

I use Z-Poxy to fill the pores and I spray with WB EM6000.

For this Bouzouki build, the Myrtle didn't really have pores but I used the zpoxy anyway to 'pop the figure' as you say. I generally finish pore filling with a thinned down coat of 50/50 zpoxy- alcohol and do not sand back to the wood.

I finished this Bouzouki a few weeks back and rubbed the finish out by hand. It was good but not brilliant. However, I got the Stewmac buffing arbor this week and buffed the body again using the machine and the results are excellent.

Just having the buffing arbor this week (I have finished two instruments with it) has shown me how much a machine gloss will affect the figure (which I always thought was pretty good when I did it by hand).

So in answer to your question; Z-Poxy and a good Buff! ;)
Author:  Andy Birko [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Popping the Grain" Under Water Based Finishes
I always seal with shellac under the finish and it seems to do a pretty adequate job on spruce. If the wood needs pore filling then it's z-poxy.

The other thing which works very well on figured wood is to stain with a dark stain and then sand almost all of the stain off. Plenty will remain in the curly grain and pop really well.

Here's two backs made from the same tree - on the one, I did the stain and sand back but the stain was very light and it's almost invisible. Second one I used a dark brown stain and it came out much better, don't you think?
Author:  Corky Long [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Popping the Grain" Under Water Based Finishes
Darryl,

I use z - poxy as pore filler - following the good instructions provided by others here, then finish with KTM 9 (sprayed). I find the effect to be quite good in popping the finish. The zpoxy does darken the wood just a little bit, which can be alright with certain woods.

regards,
Author:  Mark A Thorpe [ Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Popping the Grain" Under Water Based Finishes
Z-poxy for me.
Author:  Darryl Young [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  "Popping the Grain" Under Water Based Finishes
Thanks for the info guys. So is there no other option than to use the pore filler to pop the grain? Surely there is.
Author:  Andy Birko [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Popping the Grain" Under Water Based Finishes
Did you miss my post?
Author:  Darryl Young [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  "Popping the Grain" Under Water Based Finishes
No, I didn't miss your post Andy......sorry about that. The darker stain does provide much more contrast in the figure. I'm guessing that is why many use a dark pore filler on mahogany.

I've considered using CA as a pore filler but unless I find a good sealer that will pop the grain, I may go with epoxy.
Author:  Andy Birko [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Popping the Grain" Under Water Based Finishes
Try shellac as well. Even super blond has a big effect. Definitely much better than straight WBL over wood.
Author:  Mike Collins [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Popping the Grain" Under Water Based Finishes
I use only shellac.
Epoxy is nasty for you !

Go to --www.shellac.net
and buy some different colored de-waxed ones.

I spray mine on.
I'm liking the darker varieties allot lately.
Don't buy LEMON -unless you really need a yellow transperent finish!

Mike ;)
Author:  Parser [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Popping the Grain" Under Water Based Finishes
I would be hesitant to say that there is that big of a difference between nitro & wb lacquer. Is this something that is "accepted"? In the past I've encountered a bit of "haze" with some of the earlier wb products...but newer products like EM6000 seem pretty darn good.

With that said, epoxy does pop the grain...! If you really want to pop it, use zpoxy. If you want something nontoxic that is much easier to finish a guitar with, but won't bling out the grain like zpoxy, try that waterbased pore filler from LMI.

Check out some of the posts on targetcoatings.com.

http://www.targetcoatings.com/forum/vie ... tar+em6000

Trev
Author:  Ken C [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Popping the Grain" Under Water Based Finishes
When you write, "Popping the grain" are you referring to making the grain stand out more or depth of finish? I'd say that waterborne lacquers do a good job of emphasizing the grain and may on some woods enhance the grain more than solvent based finishes. So I am bit hesitant to agree 100% with your premise. If you are talking about depth of finish, then I will agree that waterbased lacquers tend too look a bit shallow by comparison. I often shoot a coat or two of amber shellac as a base, which enhances the depth of the finish as well as gives the finish more of an aged look. That coat of shellac under water-based lacquer followed by a good polishing job can leave many dumbfounded that the finish is truly waterbased lacquer.

If you want to pop grain, try using pore fillers with tint. I often use Behlen's water-based Pore O' Pac as filler. Fill can be tinted deep brown or black, so the pores are much darker, really adding depth to the wood. If I am staining mahogany, I will tint the filler red, which dries very pinkish, but then when stained, turns a deep, dark reddish brown providing good contrast to the surrounding wood. If I am not staining, I'll shoot for a tint that leaves the pores darker than the surrounding wood.

Ken
Author:  David Malicky [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Popping the Grain" Under Water Based Finishes
I also like shellac (dewaxed).
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