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your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
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Author:  Heath Blair [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
ive got one and a half guitars under my belt. ive used relatively affordable woods such as walnut, mahogany, medium grade spruces, etc. so far. i spend hours drooling over beautiful exotics and dreaming of the guitars a would build if i owned them. even though i have high hopes of building guitars at least on a semi-professional level. the reality is though, its going to be some time before i reach that place. my next two builds are slated to be gifts to good friends who are also local musicians. i will probably stick to moderately priced woods for these since there will be no commission involved.

i keep wanting to buy wood that i know im not going to build with for some time. is this smart? there are pieces that are rare and expensive and the truth is, they arent always going to be around. is it an investment or an impulse? your thoughts?
Author:  Kim [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
Its a simply law of lutherie. You will see a set of wood that you 'really' like and your head will tell you, 'i don't need it right now', but your heart will be saying 'GIMMIE!'. By all means let your head rule, but be prepared for the heart aches to follow when you decide down the track that 'ENTER DROOL PROVOKER HERE' is the wood of choice for the next one but despite having passing over at least 6 sets in the last 2 years that would easy fit the bill, you now can't find anything suitable for love nor money.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
I chose the 'build the stash' route. My problem is different from Kim's though. I don't have any time to build with all those pretty expensive woods I have. I have an entire room in my house dedicated to tonewood. Probably enough Brazilian Rosewood pieces to make enough bridges to give one to each member of this forum. And yet...no time to build. I even have a stool in there so I can go in and sit comfortably whilst I survey my prizes.

BUT - to shoot straight here...I'm not sure I'd do all this again if I had the chance. I think I'd just spend money on what I needed to build the current instrument and then drool after everything else. I've got a lot of cash wrapped up in that stuff...and occasionally I wish I had it for other things. This guitar building thing has dollar signs stamped all over everything.

Anyway just my current opinion. I may wake up tomorrow morning and change my mind. It's happened before.

Chris
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
Buy it, but in moderation. It's unlikely that any nice wood would depreciate. Can't think of any wood that has become more available and less expensive...
Author:  DennisK [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
Yep, if you have the money and you're confident that you will use it eventually (and do it justice), then you might as well buy it. Most of those "gimme!" sets are pretty much one of a kind, so if you're going to want them eventually, you better snap them up. I'm still regretting how I resisted this set of Brazilian from an auction here a couple months ago:
Attachment:
BRWOLD.jpg

Just about the coolest looking set I've ever seen, and it went for a mere $550 :cry:

On the other side of the viewpoint, stashing wood encourages the cutting of more trees to replace it the marketplace. And if you look at it that way, if everyone bought wood only when they actually needed it, the trees would get to live longer before being cut, thus growing larger and reproducing more. But I doubt it would make that big a difference given the likely time between adding something to your stash and using it. So better to keep a stash, but use as much reclaimed wood as possible, and especially avoid fresh cut endangered trees. And be sure to sell off anything you're not likely to ever use, rather than just sitting on it for 50 years.

I'm not much one to talk though, with a bunch of African blackwood fingerboards, two sets of cocobolo, one ziricote, one malaysian blackwood... but I also have a lot of salvaged redwood, Port Orford Cedar, and the latest addition on the way, one of the insanely gorgeous ancient kauri sets RC Tonewoods put up yesterday. It's going to be paired with another very old wood I have a lead on, giant sequoia :)

But I'm undecided whether it's honorable or creepy to build instruments out of old irreplaceable woods like those. On the one hand, the trees died naturally or were cut a long time ago, and there won't be any more killed in their place when I use them. But on the other hand, it's like sitting and waiting for something to die so you can have a party with the corpse.
Author:  Steve Kinnaird [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
Heath, ask yourself if you enjoy collecting.
I'm serious.
There are wood collectors, who are after scraps & pieces of nearly every thing turned into lumber.
As a luthier, though, you have the added advantage of actually being able to DO something with what you collect.
Or as a collector, you can just enjoy having that particular set lying around the shop.

I enjoy both sides, and it's a win/win proposition to buy a new set.
Plus, as already pointed out, you can eventually sell it, and usually for a profit. So maybe you can don the investor cap as well.

I say go buy it, but leave some for me.

:D

Steve
Author:  bobthebuilder [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
I have to agree with Steve. Half the fun of this game is buying those special sets that only come every once in a while and you may never see another again. Over the years I have collected some amazing sets that I "haven"t gotten around to using yet" but still enjoy finding while searching my stash looking for something else. I think as long as you keep controll of you spending and pick up only the sets that are truly exceptional then you should be fine. Controll is the key. Cheers, Bob.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
This is a no brainer. When really good and rare wood becomes available, buy all you can.
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
I think it is a great idea to get a good stockpile going if you can afford it. I wish I had been more picky when I was starting. Looking back I would have preferred to pay a little more for really stellar stuff than a good price for pretty good stuff. I agree with Howard's attitude totally. I think purchasing a lot of top wood is maybe even more important than good exotic back and sides wood. Once you get a sense of what is great top wood get as much as you can and put it on a back shelf and forget about it for 10 years or so. Then when you are (hopefully!) making some really great guitars from newly bought wood you can begin to dip in to your nice aged wood.

As my friend Walter says: "Some guys get all the girls, I get all the wood." He's not joking, his basement is a museum.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
I'm trying to buy as much highest grade as I can afford after paying the bills. I think I have close to 40 nice tops and 20 backs now. I will soon close my 3rd year coming very close to my 10th guitar (working in my spare time)
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
I second Howard's and Burton's comments.
However, to develop on Burton's comment, I'll add that there's a learning curve to appreciate the good stuff. The flashiest sets don't necessarily make the best guitars. Quite the opposite in fact. And it takes time to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. Good pictures help if you're not able to pick directly.
Except for a handful of vendors grading is all over the place and pretty meaningless. It's a war of superlatives for mediocre wood, and some that is not even instrument grade. A quick look at what's available on eBay illustrates that, and sadly quite a few vendors are clueless on the wood they sell.
It looks to me that there is kind of an inflated second market for beginner-builders, and a lot of useless wood that is bound to stay on the shelves… I see a lot of crappy tops and back & sides selling for way too much money, and one wonder why in the first place somebody spent the time to process the stuff in sets. Good pics usually tell 75% of what you need to know.
In short, my comment would be, educate yourself for a while before you decide to spend major $$$ on tonewood.
Author:  Heath Blair [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
honestly, i feel pretty frustrated. im staring at all of these beautiful sets thinking, its going to be at least a handful of guitars before i even touch this stuff. im just having a hard time justifying the expense, even if the money is there, when i know that there are a ton of other things that our family as a whole could use. what i really need are some medium grade sets of EIR and sitka. like i mentioned, im not a professional. if i were, it would be a different story. always a balancing act i suppose. thanks everyone for the insight. i really appreciate the point of view.
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
Personally I have just been buying wood when I see a good deal. Unfortunately there seem to be a lot of "good deals" so I have to stay away from classifieds, vendors, ebay, etcetera now. :oops: :)
Author:  WudWerkr [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
In my case there is a direct corellation to the amount of wood i purchase and the size of the bouqet of roses I give the wife ! [:Y:]

Besides if I keep it a couple yrs and dont use it , maybe i can sell it back to brock for motre than I paid laughing6-hehe
Author:  Haans [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
Far be it from me to cut against the grain, but I would say it depends on your funds. If you have lots of $$$ to spare, sure, go ahead and buy it and stick it on a shelf if you can stay away from it.
To me a better plan is to buy plenty of Honduras, IRW and ebony. Go to a good hardwood lumber yard and buy some African mahogany (QS), walnut, and look for QS white oak and maple.
Think of it this way. Professional builders can get 5K for a BRW back and sides, but you can't. Better to stick to mahogany or IRW that will make a fine guitar and be in the affordability range of your prospective buyers. Sure, if you see something that looks good and "down the road" to you, buy it. But weigh this: one $4-500 back and sides will buy many mahogany or IRW sets, and a ton of oak or maple.
Author:  the Padma [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
Ya know, is topics like this that rub the Padma.

Ya dang well know your gonna get the bell curve of answers including the two extremes

The bottom line really is gonna be "can I afford it" cuz if you can then you don't need to justify it and if you need to justify it, you probably can't.

Truth is, virtually every luthier has some wood stashed away, some more than others.

Which then translates to "you gonna do what you gonna do regardless of all the answers you gonna get."

So me crack off to me lady friend about this here thread and she puts me in me place by saying "Ya know Padma, it really ain't so much about the question in the thread as much as it is another human being reaching out and saying "Hi." Thats what humans do Padma, they share energy by babbling small talk and that includes the stashing of wood."

So with that said, the only answer me can really offer you Heath is, "Hi Heath, do what makes your heart happy.


blessings
duh Padma
Author:  DennisK [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
the Padma wrote:
The bottom line really is gonna be "can I afford it" cuz if you can then you don't need to justify it and if you need to justify it, you probably can't.

Certainly true, but you can at least try to minimize your evil, and discussion of such things can help to make more educated decisions. It makes me sad that my post has been the only one so far to at least touch on the ethical aspects of our materials. Gotta keep in mind that it's not only the trees you chop that are affected, but the monkeys that live in them too. Granted, we hand builders put a very large amount of time into very small quantities of wood, thus preventing ourselves from using very much in the first place, so it may not be worth fussing over. More of an issue for the high volume factories. And even more for the house builders and furniture builders and paper industry... Compared to all that we're just nibbling the grass.

Haans wrote:
To me a better plan is to buy plenty of Honduras, IRW and ebony. Go to a good hardwood lumber yard and buy some African mahogany (QS), walnut, and look for QS white oak and maple.

Yep, that is an excellent strategy. I hear stories of days when Brazilian rosewood was little more expensive than Indian is today. I doubt Indian will ever reach comparably high, but the nicely quartered, straight grained stuff we can buy for cheap will probably go away sooner than later. And if you don't get bored using the same materials every time, it takes a lot of the variables out of the tone equation.

From another perspective, by stockpiling now, you're "saving" the good stuff from the factories. But that excuse only works if it's a species that factories regularly use. Does this mean I should go buy a bunch of Madagascar rosewood sets while you can get good quality for a mere $100-150? ...I'm not really sure, but I felt kind of icky when I almost did it a while back, so I didn't. But if I can't save the trees from the chainsaws, isn't it better to hoard the remains and put my best effort into working them? Better than letting them go to the Chinese furniture factories at least. So why did I feel icky?
Author:  Brock Poling [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
I would buy and hold what's worth buying and holding. For me that is

Superior EIR
BRW (but I am really picky about this. I will pay a lot for the super sets)
Amazon Rosewood (dark perfectly quartered sets)
Madagascar Rosewood (except I have pretty much ate my fill of this one)
Old Hondo Mahogany
Cuban Mahogany
Superior quality neck stock
Sitka (you should start stock piling the really great sets of this, the future isn't looking good for Sitka)
Madagascar Ebony

I am less likely to invest a bundle in other woods unless they are truly one of a kind.

Another direction I seem to be heading is leaning away from the over the top figure and flame. That is always the holy grail in buying wood, but honestly I find the stuff I am aesthetically drawn to now is the more subdued sets ... perhaps with something slightly interesting that you have to look at (or think about) to see. possibly even an interesting imperfection that can be highlighted as a feature. One of my favorite guitar designs is one that Jeff Traugott did where he used a tight knot as a visual centerpiece on one of his guitars. To this day it is one of my very favorite guitars. It is just breathtakingly beautiful.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
I've pretty much stuck to buying the best Sitka and Lutz tops I can get and stockpiling those as well as top grade EIRW and Mahogany. You can get a good feel for these woods and build a great sounding guitar that can be sold at a price that might get a few out the door with the current economy. That said, my 50th will be coming up in the next year or so and I do have a BZ set that was given to me that I am saving for that one. I think that if you are not a highly recognized builder the money is better spent on honing your skills and reputation by building as many good affordable guitars as you can and getting them out there.
Author:  Alexandru Marian [ Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
one piece necks are just plain evil
Author:  Brock Poling [ Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
Filippo Morelli wrote:
Brock ... is there such a thing as good EIR any more? Most of it seems to be wide grain plantation stuff.

Filippo


Yeah, there is, but you really have to hunt for it. I am only interested in the perfectly quartersawn dark forest grown stuff.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
Todd Stock wrote:
Alexandru Marian wrote:
one piece necks are just plain evil
Exactly.
I have to laugh!
Frankly I've made necks in every way possible: a lot 1 piece, most with a scarfed peghead and heel block, some with scarfed peghead and stacked heel and lately 5 parts laminated with 5/8 flat sawn stock.
The most wasteful is the laminated since there's not much to do with the waste in the middle if you do a 2 necks stack. Harder is to do laminates by carefully cutting the parts with minimal waste in the same board, it's harder to glue and harder to get an attractive symmetrical pattern with the grain.
The big 3" x 4" blanks actually get you two 14 fretter necks, some neck block stock (I use a inverted Spanish foot) and if you're careful some 1" stock for a 12 fretter with scarfed peghead and stacked heel. No waste for me, at all.
I still have the middle parts of a bunch of laminated necks and I use the stock once in a while for jigs. I assume most will end up in the woodstove as kindling.
Of course good, clear straight grain 3 x 4 Honduran is harder to come by these days, that's the only limitation.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
Todd Stock wrote:
Alexandru Marian wrote:
one piece necks are just plain evil
Exactly.
I have to laugh!
Frankly I've made necks in every way possible: a lot 1 piece, most with a scarfed peghead and heel block, some with scarfed peghead and stacked heel and lately 5 parts laminated with 5/8 flat sawn stock.
The most wasteful is the laminated since there's not much to do with the waste in the middle if you do a 2 necks stack. Harder is to do laminates by carefully cutting the parts with minimal waste in the same board, it's harder to glue and harder to get an attractive symmetrical pattern with the grain.
The big 3" x 4" blanks actually get you two 14 fretter necks, some neck block stock (I use a inverted Spanish foot) and if you're careful some 1" stock for a 12 fretter with scarfed peghead and stacked heel. No waste for me, at all.
I still have the middle parts of a bunch of laminated necks and I use the stock once in a while for jigs. I assume most will end up in the woodstove as kindling.
Of course good, clear straight grain 3 x 4 Honduran is harder to come by these days, that's the only limitation.
Author:  Heath Blair [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
well, i think ive come to terms, at least for now, with my current situation. for now, ill buy wood as i need it. my next couple of guitars will probably be built with moderately priced woods and thats more than fine, thats actually great. im happy to be building. once i get beyond that, well then ill start considering some other woods. thanks to all for your insight.

i held out just long enough that most of the wood i was looking at got snatched up anyway. and thats just the problem. in this industry, you cant hesitate when you see something you want because theres someone else who isnt going to hesitate and boom, its gone. for now thats fine i suppose.

one of the things i did want to mention though is a set of myrtle i found that i just fell in love with. i had vision for a guitar and felt quite inspired. theres plenty of great looking wood out there, but not all of it inspires you to build a guitar. i sat around for a couple of weeks and when i finally decided to pull the trigger it had been sold 3 days prior according to the vendor. even though the vendor found something really close, it just didnt have that same wow value to me. i lamented that one for a while.

so its not just about snatching up all of the most amazing wood you can find. finding those truly inspirational pieces is even harder.

thanks again for your time and listening to my frustrations.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: your thoughts on creating a wood "stash"
Quality tonewood has only ever gone up in price, and down in availability. If you have the liquidity and the space, buy all you can.

Frankly, at my current rate of (mostly not) building, I have enough to last me well past retirement age, and I've only just turned 30.
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