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| alternatives to a neck reset ? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=28558 |
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| Author: | Jody [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | alternatives to a neck reset ? |
So.. I have this old yamaha in need of a neck reset, I tried loosening the the finger board from the top using some heat with no luck, and I tried some steam to loosen the neck joint , no luck. so assuming they have used glues other than wood glue, which does not easily release, plan b is in order. I have heard of cutting the neck off at the heel joing and cutting through the fingerboard and replacing the neck using bolts. can someone give me an idea how to go about this ? what type of saw to use to minimize the damage to the joint, and for accur5acy? In Ervins book he mentions another alternative to removing the neck, which is the separate the back from the neck block, " adjust" the neck angle then reglue it . sounds simple , but I am thinking they probably used the same glue as with the fretboard and neck joint. has anyone tried this alternative? on a 70's yamaha ? thanks Jody |
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| Author: | Laurent Brondel [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
What vintage is your Yamaha? On the '70s and early '80s ones (the only ones I know) you will find carpenter's glue (maybe white glue), most likely spruce blocks and a French dovetail joint. The trick is, the gap of the dovetail is not under the 15th fret, but under the middle of the 15th fret. If you drill in the fretboard dot at the 15th fret (you'll need to replace it at re-assembly) you'll hit the right spot. The other issue is, like Gibsons & Guilds, those guitar were finished assembled, so you need to carefully cut the finish between the neck heel and the sides with an x-acto knife before proceeding. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
The neck may be doweled in such that steaming won't work. Don't cut through the fretboard, I've done that on a cheapo guitar to learn several years ago and it's a bad idea imo as the fretboard is actually structural part of the neck joint. Get a good heat lamp, protect the top with fire retardant cloth and heat the tongue up really good. Lift the fret board off the top up to the body joint. Using a very fine bladed Japanese saw cut the neck off as close as you can to the sides. Protect the sides with flashing, a beer can would work well here. Once the neck is off scrape away all the glue on the fret board and true the face of the heal. Drill the holes to accept the brass wood inserts into the heal and the matching holes into the head block. One trick I do to inset the bolts into the head block on the inside of the guitar is to take a spade bit and grind an edge into the bottom of the spade (opposite the sharp side) such that you can insert the bit through the sound hole placing the drill bit shaft through the bolt holes and then mount it in your drill. Then run the drill and pull on the bit so that you cut a hole in the head block to recess the bolts (it's hard to explain). I've done this job successfully a few times and I think it's the best method compared to the others mentioned. If it was a fine classical guitar I'd probably not want to do this method but it works quite well and can be done very cleanly. You will have to adjust your saddle for proper intonation since your fretboard will actually be one saw kerf thick closer to the bridge, ie your scale length has decreased. This can be done by routing out the saddle for a thicker bone or you can face the edge of the heal with a shim equal to the thickness of your saw kerf and any other material removed but that will show so I prefer to rerout the saddle. |
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| Author: | John Platko [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
This must be "bone saw day", (it's the second time I'm posting this link. http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier ... eset1.html Another approach, depending on how bad things are is to taper the fingerboard so that it's lower at the nut end. An opposite kind of taper is common on classical guitars. A fingerboard taper and a bit of bridge shaving may prolong life enough for you. (Inexpensive versions of the bone saw are now available.) John |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
Haha oh wow how cool is that bone saw method! |
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| Author: | Dan Pennington [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
About 10 years ago, I sawed the neck off an old cheap Yamaha that was seriously in need of a neck reset. I had tried the usual steaming and nothing happened. I couldn't afford a bone saw so I used an Exacto saw. I removed the reinforcement from the back of the blade which made the saw blade very thin but dangerously flexible. I could cut only on the draw stroke or the blade would bend and bind. The neck was doweled into the block, if I remember correctly. I experimented with a lot of junk guitars that I bought from the 'As Is'/junk rack at Elderly's. I made the Yamaha neck into a bolt on and so I had an old cheap Yamaha that was moderately playable. It wasn't worth all the effort that went into it. I gave it to a kid in the neighborhood who had dreams of rock stardom. |
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| Author: | John Hale [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
Why not plane the bridge down and then lower the saddle I've done it twice now on cheap guitars and it gets them playable. |
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| Author: | Jody [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
The bridge has been removed and thinned already , It is a mid seventies ( I think) fg-200 I think I will try drilling the "steam" hole in the dot at the 15th fret!A bone saw? where the blade basicly vibrates? I think I have seen several newer variations of this , one is by Fein at lowes and home depot. Thanks for all the help! it gives me some ideas how to proceed with this ! Jody |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
One thing I've done is X ray guitars that have neck joints with which I am not familiar. It tells you a lot. If you have a friend in health care they'll sneak it in for you. Here's a 70's Alvarez I did recently that turned out to be epoxy. I converted it to a bolt-on. The small gap present was filled with epoxy.   I had to cut off the fretboard to get this one off. 
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| Author: | John Platko [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
Jody wrote: ... A bone saw? where the blade basicly vibrates? I think I have seen several newer variations of this , one is by Fein at lowes and home depot. Thanks for all the help! it gives me some ideas how to proceed with this ! Jody Wasn't a bone saw the first tool for guitar making that you bought? Yes, there's are versions that are now sold for "non-medical" use. John |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
Cool pics, Terence! |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
Here's a pic of the neck joint in a Yamaha (cheap classical G-50) which may help. Attachment: Yamaha neck joint G-50.jpg It took a fair bit of heat to get the fingerboard to release, and I did use a makeshift 'neck squeezer' jig to push the neck up out of the dovetail when steaming. Laurent's advice about the position of the dovetail is 'right on'. You can see that I should have drilled closer to the neck/body joint, not through the fret slot, or should have tried to angle the hole 'back' towards the dovetail gap. On top of that, notice that I cleverly  drilled right on the center line for the steam inject, hitting the square section aluminum tube buried there!Laurent's advice about cutting through the finish is important- it's thick and tough. I used a fine saw for most of that job. Since they used dovetails in their classical, I'd be surprised if they didn't use the same style in their steel-string guitars in those days. Cheers John |
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| Author: | Laurent Brondel [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
I'll repeat: on FG Yamahas there is no need for bone saws or for cutting anything except the thick poly finish, nor is there any epoxy. It's a classic French dovetail joint filled with white glue, in that respect no worse than '70s Martins. Patience and steam will do it. The best way to unglue the fretboard extension I know is with a heat lamp (a 100w hallogen bulb will do too) positionned over the fretboard and some aluminum covered cardboard to protect the top and the edges of the fretboard. |
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| Author: | Jody [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
Terence ,John, Laurent ! Thanks for the pics and a great bit of help! I think I will drill through the fingerboard off center to avoid the truss rod !! for me a rose wood " worm hole" is an easier repair than a MOP dot, at this time! thanks for the advice all! I was sure hoping to resurect this old yamaha for " around the campfire" use, as it was the first guitar I had that could actualy be played ! Jody |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
Jody- Let us know how it goes! |
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| Author: | Jody [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
I dont know, I used a 125 watt heat lamp for about 1/2 hour, a few inches from the fingerboard, and that thing will not release , the board was too hot to touch for at least 15 minutes . I glued my tongue on my build with tite bond original, it softened in a few minutes with an iron and an aluminum caul. Jody |
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| Author: | John Platko [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
Jody wrote: I dont know, I used a 125 watt heat lamp for about 1/2 hour, a few inches from the fingerboard, and that thing will not release , the board was too hot to touch for at least 15 minutes . I glued my tongue on my build with tite bond original, it softened in a few minutes with an iron and an aluminum caul. Jody Wow, I'm looking for a glue that will stand up to heat like that. Anybody have any idea what it might be? |
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| Author: | Laurent Brondel [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
Jody wrote: I dont know, I used a 125 watt heat lamp for about 1/2 hour, a few inches from the fingerboard, and that thing will not release , the board was too hot to touch for at least 15 minutes . I glued my tongue on my build with tite bond original, it softened in a few minutes with an iron and an aluminum caul. Jody Did you cut the finish between the fretboard and top? Also are you trying to insert a thin, polished spatula under the fretboard?All glues I know except polyurethane glue (and I think they didn't exist when your Yamaha was made) will readily give up with heat or heat and moisture, including epoxy and CA. |
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| Author: | Jeffrey L. Suits [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
Jody wrote: So.. I have this old yamaha in need of a neck reset, I tried loosening the the finger board from the top using some heat with no luck, and I tried some steam to loosen the neck joint , no luck. so assuming they have used glues other than wood glue, which does not easily release, plan b is in order. I have heard of cutting the neck off at the heel joing and cutting through the fingerboard and replacing the neck using bolts. can someone give me an idea how to go about this ? what type of saw to use to minimize the damage to the joint, and for accur5acy? In Ervins book he mentions another alternative to removing the neck, which is the separate the back from the neck block, " adjust" the neck angle then reglue it . sounds simple , but I am thinking they probably used the same glue as with the fretboard and neck joint. has anyone tried this alternative? on a 70's yamaha ? thanks Jody Classic Yamaha! It's a ich to get the fingerboard extension loose, because all the heat needed, tends to release the glue in the laminated top underneath. The dovetails tend to be mechanically tight, so they sometimes seize, from swelling, when they're steamed. When I redo Yamahas, they're always going to be converted to a bolt-on, so I hit the pocket by drilling a 3/16" hole through the neck block, which will later become a bolt hole. I used to use a Fein Multimaster do saw off necks, when necessary, but now use a very fine Japanese flush trim saw, after scoring the finish with an .008 jeweler's slitting blade, by hand. Later Yamahas, with the heavier, slathered-on finish--I score all the way through the finish, to hav more control over where it's going to crack, or not. With this method, I can just use blue masking tape on the sides, and not scratch them at all. I use 1/4-20 hangerbolts, rather than inserts. This may help: http://s294.photobucket.com/albums/mm91 ... ?start=100 |
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| Author: | Jeffrey L. Suits [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
"I had tried the usual steaming and nothing happened." More than once, to me, too. Several months ago, I got ahold of two FG180s. One of them came almost as easily as a hide glued joint, the other-nothing! Steamed the living s**t out of it, wiggled the neck back and forth, no movement at all. Became a de-facto sawjob. Anymore, I'm inclined to saw them, if I know they're going to turn into bolt-ons. |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
I would do a neck block/ guitar back reset before sawing. This is becoming something of a lost art. It would take too much time to write out detailed instructions, but if I ever get an appropriate instrument for doing another, I'll try to take a photo record. It is an appropriate method for some guitars but is not taught anywhere after the official repair police decided it was not proper (for old Martins). |
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| Author: | Jody [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: alternatives to a neck reset ? |
yes I managed to ge a thin spatula tip about 1/2 - 3/4 under the fingerboard,on one side I thought it was starting to give .. but no way . Jody |
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