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Can you build without a truss rod?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=28445		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  djmrozinski [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Can you build without a truss rod?
I am going to show my inexperience. If you use good quartersawn lumber and add carbon fiber reinforcement, is a truss rod still necessary? I know that you want some relief in the neck for a good setup, so is a truss rod the only way to go?

I am wondering about this as I start my second guitar, a parlor size steel string acoustic.

Thoughts???

Thanks
Dave
Author:  bluescreek [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
Since you are looking for advice , I have built over 100 guitars , your Carbon fiber is a truss rod just not adjustable. In your case , you better put an adjustable rod in. If you don't you would need to use a compression fretting to adjust the relief . Since relief is a critical part of adjusting action and playability this has to be considered. Compression fretting is not for the inexperienced . Besides a truss rod is not that expensive in relation to the cost of building a guitar.
Author:  David Malicky [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
I think it depends on the kind of reinforcement. A small rod will absorb some string tension, but probably won't keep the relief stable over time. Martin used a 3/8" square steel tube in the '60s and '70s -- this is probably stiff enough on its own that the relief set at the factory should stay pretty stable. My understanding is that these necks have generally held up well over time. In our student guitars we use a 3/8" x 1/4" solid steel bar, CA'd in place all around... seems to work fine, though we've only 3 years experience so far. All that said, some players want to adjust the relief to their own liking.
Author:  djmrozinski [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
No issue using a truss rod, just wondering if they are the only option.

Thanks
Dave
Author:  the Padma [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
Well now since you looking for advise, I have build twice as many instruments as John, and Gibson has build at least 10 times more than me and John together and well the point here is ...go take a look at them early Gibsons...long way before carbon fiber and no truss rods ether yet them necks are still straight. An dig this ...they were using birch.

So lets look at a truss rod... It serves two purposes...helps keep the neck straight and aids in setting up the neck.
Lets look at carbon fiber...cheap insurance from warped necks.

Yes you can build with out the truss rod and without the fiber, but compression fretting ain't a beginners art, and knowing how to set up a neck before the fretboad goes on is virtually a lost art as is how to pick and choose the gain in a neck to minimize any possible warping. Of course you could always build the setup into the fretboard, but again...very few know how or even remember how. And there ain't much written about it.

All in all John is right when he say .

bluescreek wrote:
... a truss rod is not that expensive in relation to the cost of building a guitar.


Blessings
duh Padma
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
All I can say is that necks without a truss rod sound different, and CF has a "tone". If you decide to go for it and use CF, use more than two 1/8 x 3/8 rods. Use at least 1/4 x 1/4, and preferably bigger. As John stated, compression fretting is a bit tricky and you need to have different fretwires with thinner/fatter tangs. Frets can always be pulled out and replaced to get proper relief.
The other solution is to use a steel T-bar, but it's much heavier.
For a very light and ultra-stiff neck, you can reproduce Martin's bar fretted necks: just an ebony bar. But then, bar frets really stiffen a neck and the principle is the same as compression fretting. It is compression fretting actually. The trick is not to fet sequentially, but to start in the middle of the neck, at the 5th or 7th fret, then 3rd and 11th, check the relief and so on.
Author:  the Padma [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
Laurent Brondel wrote:
....The trick is not to fet sequentially, but to start in the middle of the neck, at the 5th or 7th fret, then 3rd and 11th, check the relief and so on.




Thanks Laurent...thats something the Padma didn't know.
Author:  Tom West [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
I have built necks with non-adjustable truss rods.The ones I made had to be built with a back bow to compensate for the pull of the strings.This was just done by feel.Most times it would come out right,but sometimes too much or not quite enough. Also found that over the years some would pick up a bit more relief. Did not use CF but rather steel stock. Don't build that way anymore,now I use a double action rod and two CF 1/8" x 3/8" strips. Makes a very stiff neck and adjustable both ways. I would advise you to use an adjustable rod like the vast majority of builders.
Tom
Author:  bluescreek [ Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
Like Laurent I don't just start pounding in frets. I use a number of tang widths starting at .0105 up to 24.5. I use a .023 slot. I will use .0195 on the extension. It is also advisable to put the frets on when the board is on the neck. I learned to do this ar CF Martin . I start on 14 fret with .0195 and do every other one 14 - 12 -10. At 10 I will use a wider tang and start to work in my back bow. My taget is .007 to .010 back bow from the 7th fret to the nut.
I will work 5 to 1 carefully to see that I have a nice uniform arc. Once that is done I will make final adjustments on the guitar. Then the guitar is done I will but 2 weights on the shoulders of the guitar so I can simulate a string load. The weight is about 7 lbs total and the nead stock supported. I then level the frets and dress them. Once strung up I will tweak where I have to . You may have to pull a few frets and add or subtract depending on how the neck is reacting to the load. I look to hit my lower end of relief as the neck may go higher but I never seen one go lower.
I like to see about .004 to .006 on initial set up. Compression fretting can be a PITA but it is something you may need to learn to do. Bar fretting is another ball game .
Author:  the Padma [ Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
Thank you John for shedding even more light on compressions fretting.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
bluescreek wrote:
Like Laurent I don't just start pounding in frets. I use a number of tang widths starting at .0105 up to 24.5. I use a .023 slot. I will use .0195 on the extension. It is also advisable to put the frets on when the board is on the neck. I learned to do this ar CF Martin . I start on 14 fret with .0195 and do every other one 14 - 12 -10. At 10 I will use a wider tang and start to work in my back bow. My taget is .007 to .010 back bow from the 7th fret to the nut.
I will work 5 to 1 carefully to see that I have a nice uniform arc. Once that is done I will make final adjustments on the guitar. Then the guitar is done I will but 2 weights on the shoulders of the guitar so I can simulate a string load. The weight is about 7 lbs total and the nead stock supported. I then level the frets and dress them. Once strung up I will tweak where I have to . You may have to pull a few frets and add or subtract depending on how the neck is reacting to the load. I look to hit my lower end of relief as the neck may go higher but I never seen one go lower.
I like to see about .004 to .006 on initial set up. Compression fretting can be a PITA but it is something you may need to learn to do. Bar fretting is another ball game .


So IOW to the OP, you can go through all this trouble or just rout in a double action truss rod :mrgreen:

The future owner of the guitar would have to have the refret done by some one with this kind of knowledge too. My first two guitars were built with just steel bar stock and the necks are still dead straight to this day, heavy but straight. I use double action rods now and they have definitely saved me a lot of work and will be easier for informed customers to tweak themselves too (over the phone even).
Author:  John Platko [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
Quote:
Production guitar makers learned early on that having to control relief through compression fretting was a PITA, so went to adjustable single-action truss rods to control relief.


early on?

It took Martin about 40 years of steel string building to switch to adjustable truss rods.
Author:  Rick Davis [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
I've been told that Gibson's patent on their adjustable truss rod kept Martin from switching earlier. Could be myth; I haven't researched it but it sounds plausible.
Author:  John Platko [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
Rick Davis wrote:
I've been told that Gibson's patent on their adjustable truss rod kept Martin from switching earlier. Could be myth; I haven't researched it but it sounds plausible.


I read that the Gibson patent expired in the 40s - others say 50s. I think they got it in the 20s. I don't know if patents lasted longer then than they do now. Martin didn't seem in a hurry to switch. Other companies got around the Gibson patent. Epiphone, for example.

John
Author:  Darryl Young [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
I think the popularity and nice setup on the Taylors made Martin swith to a truss rod (my opinion only).
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
There are (profesional) luthiers who build some guitars without truss rods or reinforcement in the necks.

They are building in the old style- thicker necks, they even use (gasp) poplar!!
Author:  bluescreek [ Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
Martin didn't want to change to the adjustable truss rod . it was in the 80's that they finally did it. According to the Martin accounting, it wasn't that they couldn't use an adjustable rod , Frank didn't want to. Once they did , they didn't look back.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
Brad Goodman wrote:
There are (profesional) luthiers who build some guitars without truss rods or reinforcement in the necks.

They are building in the old style- thicker necks, they even use (gasp) poplar!!


Indeed. Last year, someone brought one into my shop wanting me to fix the action. When I told him how much it would be to fix it with compression re-fretting, he sighed, packed it up, and went home sad.
Author:  Mike Mahar [ Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
Rick Davis wrote:
I've been told that Gibson's patent on their adjustable truss rod kept Martin from switching earlier. Could be myth; I haven't researched it but it sounds plausible.


It might have delayed them a bit but patents at that time were for 14 years. That seems like a lifetime when you want to do something "today" but it really isn't that long of a time. If Gibson put them in in the teens, Martin would have been able to use them in the early 30s or late 20s.

Patents expire and then you can use them. Novack's fretting scheme, for example, has expired. I suspect that Buzz Feiten's is due to expire any day now.

Ps. I Just checked and Buzz Feiten's patent was filed in 1999 and it under current law. It expires in 2019.
Author:  lactose [ Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
Quote:
Don't build that way anymore,now I use a double action rod and two CF 1/8" x 3/8" strips.

As a novice I have built a few with adjustable truss rods, but have mostly used just CF. Mostly for cigar box guitars, and in my recent 8 string I used 2 CF rods. In my limited experience these necks remain dead straight. One has even been in a hot car for a year and is really straight.

Yet I hear you experienced folk indicate they bend, causing fretting problems. I even see you putting adjustable truss rods along side your CF !
Maybe experience will eventually show me that these things bend. But at the moment I just don't see it.
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
lactose wrote:
Quote:
Don't build that way anymore,now I use a double action rod and two CF 1/8" x 3/8" strips.

As a novice I have built a few with adjustable truss rods, but have mostly used just CF. Mostly for cigar box guitars, and in my recent 8 string I used 2 CF rods. In my limited experience these necks remain dead straight. One has even been in a hot car for a year and is really straight.

Yet I hear you experienced folk indicate they bend, causing fretting problems. I even see you putting adjustable truss rods along side your CF !
Maybe experience will eventually show me that these things bend. But at the moment I just don't see it.


It is certainly possible to build a neck that won't creep but the odds are not with you. Even if you do everything right (fretboard glue that doesn't creep, taking measures to ensure that the fret slots don't compress around the barbs/tangs, CF bars) you can still have creep in the wood fibers over time.

On top of that, you are limited to one setup. No changing relief for different playing styles or different string gauges. No changing relief for humidity changes. Someone would have to convince me of a pretty large advantage of not using one in order make those limitations worthwhile.
Author:  Parser [ Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
It's not just that the neck moves...the body also moves due to humidity and weather changes. How many guitars have you setup where you have not had to adjust the truss rod at all? Probably not many...

If you don't have an adjustable truss rod, the only option left at this point is to ship the guitar with a couple saddles of different heights.

Trev
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
I hear a difference in my guitars with non adjustable rods versus adjustable and I like the sound better with a solid rod(s). I am willing to take the risk every time on guitars for myself but it would have to be a very educated customer where I would feel comfortable building a commissioned guitar like that. I could see it happening though. I supply saddle shims with all my guitars, even ones with adjustable rods. It is a quick and simple thing that anyone can do easily between seasons if they are not careful with the guitar's immediate environment.

To David though I would probably say that for your first guitars it would be a good idea to put an adjustable rod in. I did on my early ones and I am glad that I did.
Author:  jeb98 [ Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
I've heard a lot of builders and repairmen speak highly of the steel T bar truss rods (unadjustable) that Martin used from the mid 30's to the 60's, as they did an excellent job of keeping the necks from warping, and they also keep the neck very very stiff. The T bars were different than the square tube unadjustable truss rod that martin switched to in the 60's, which apparently didn't work very well.

Has anyone here used the the steel T bars? I'd love to hear how they worked for anyone who has used them.
Author:  lactose [ Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can you build without a truss rod?
I understand the objection to the lack of adjustability and if I sold anything (I give everything away at this point) I would go with the adjustable truss rod. But think of the forces and response of the wood when tightening the rod, then imagine a couple of CF rods close by fighting this. Seems weird to me. Fwiw I play with a low action and like a straight neck. My next project is a traditional acoustic (except for fanned frets) and will use the normal adjustable rod.
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