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Ivoroid Questions
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Author:  Mike OMelia [ Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Ivoroid Questions
First, why is it hazardous to ship? Flammable? Does anybody still use it? I am building a harp guitar and am trying to stay a little closer to the original design which calls for ivoroid binding. I really do not want to use it (don't much like plastic) and was intending to use curly maple instead. Yet, it does seem to have its uses in the harp... especially around the harp head and the swirls in the harp peghead. (sharp curves, etc, maybe plastic is better here)

So fire away. Lemme know what you know & think.

Mike
Author:  TonyKarol [ Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
Yep .. its fairly flammable ... it gases off something fierce too. I had custom celluloid gutiar picks made, and the bag full of them really stinks ... very fresh batch of celluloid.

lucky for me if I want grained ivoroid, a violin/guitar shop here stocks the stuff as well as tortoise shell .. but I dont use it much either ...
Author:  Cal Maier [ Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
Mike,

I don't use it much but, I will use it on ladder braced guitars to keep my cost down a bit. It looks good on that type of instrument and is easy to work with. I get mine from Allied Lutherie, as I found the price and shipping cost the best. It seems all the other suppliers I checked charge a very high shipping surcharge on this stuff. Yes, it is flammable and when sanded you don't want to get it hot, it can ignite, although that would be rare I'm sure. Take a celluoid pick and light it, but make sure you have it in a fireproof container like an ashtray, and you'll see what I mean.

Cal
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
Mike O'Melia wrote:
First, why is it hazardous to ship? Flammable?


You bet! Ivoroid is a form of celluloid, which is about 75% nitrocellulose aka 'gun cotton'. It's explosive under the right conditions.

Also, it does deteriorate over time, as evidenced by thousands of older guitars with 'rotting' binding. So using wood bindings might not be so historically accurate, but, compared to ivoroid bindings, will give your instrument a more trouble-free life.

some cool info from Wikipedia..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrocellulose
"Because of its explosive nature, not all applications of nitrocellulose were successful. In 1869, with elephants having been poached to near extinction, the billiards industry offered a $10,000 prize to whoever came up with the best replacement for ivory billiard balls. John Wesley Hyatt created the winning replacement which he coated with a new material he discovered called camphored nitrocellulose—the first thermoplastic, better known as celluloid. The invention enjoyed a brief popularity, but the Hyatt balls were extremely flammable, and sometimes portions of the outer shell would explode upon impact. An owner of a billiard saloon in Colorado wrote to Hyatt about the explosive tendencies, saying that he did not mind very much personally but for the fact that every man in his saloon immediately pulled a gun at the sound."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celluloid

Cheers
John
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
Ugh! Can u imagine Ted Nudgent with a guitar with lots of ivoroid?
Author:  fingerstyle1978 [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
+1 for flamed maple.

IMHO nothing on earth ruins a guitar quicker than a piece of plastic. Even when I was a kid I would rip off the pick guards and ask why the saddle was made of plastic. Soon after I found out how that they could be swapped for bone. But I never could get rid of the binding. It always irritated me. Now that I am building my own guitars, I fully intend to never allow a single piece of plastic to ever touch even one of my guitars. If someone wants a pick guard, they are going to have to add it themselves. Hahaha. Obviously I am not a fan of plastic.

I'm one of those people that brings their own reusable bags to the grocery store. :oops:
Author:  bluescreek [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
actually plastic does a better job of protection but I like the wood look myself. A nice bookmatched set of figured wood binding sets off the guitar.
Author:  Haans [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
I use a lot of ivoroid and you can't make an old timey looking instrument without it. It's easy enough to work, glues with Weldon 16, protects better than wood, and doesn't explode any easier than lacquer. I have seen a few old instruments with deteriorated pickguards, etc, but I have instruments from the teens, twenties, thirties and there is no deterioration on them.
Ivoroid or tortoise is a tradition on stringed instruments and while wood may be a good binding for a modern guitar, sorry, it doesn't make it on a vintage looking instrument.
Now, my feeling is that ABS or Bolteron is an abomination...
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
Best place to order celluloid is either AllParts or Martin, they do not upcharge for shipping hazardous materials (yet). Like Haans points out, it's an acquired taste, but a traditional one. Nothing quite looks like celluloid tortoise and ivoroid, and both look lovely. I wouldn't purely call celluloid "plastic" either.
Are we sure that the celluloid available now is exactly the same stuff used a century ago? I doubt it.
Yes, it is highly flammable, so no disk or drum sander, and router speed controller mandatory.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
Well, old movies were recorded on it before true plastics existed. There were horror stories years back when movie archivists discovered canisters of movies that had turned to goo. I have to imagine that modern ivoroid is not that different than antique only because of the materials involved. Perhaps modern manufacturing techniques have helped to create more stable versions.

Mike
Author:  Haans [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
I think what happens is if the material is stored for years and years without exposure to any conditions besides the atmosphere inside the container (or case), it deteriorates and may self ignite. So, the object in the case of instruments is to take it out of the case occasionally (ya know, play it), and keep the raw strips of celluloid out in the open and not tightly contained. My solution here...

Image

My shop doesn't smell like camphor unless I sand or scrape the stuff. I have kept celluloid like this for over 20 years with no problems. Yes, you can ignite the stuff by machine cutting or sanding, but usually this results from a dull blade or heavy handedness on the part of the builder.
Celluloid is very easy to work, and it will let you know when it's about to torch. The reason some distributors don't have hazmet charges is that they are cheating. They don't follow the rules. Fortunately (for me) I live close to the guy that took over the celluloid business when Stew-Mac got out of it.
Author:  Quine [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
I love ivoroid. It just looks right on many binding schemes.
I even like the smell bliss
Author:  Miketobey [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
I have recently done some B---o necks(5 string) and used celluloid for vintage appearance. And, on my 12 string build that is in progress I chose Ivoroid to emulate the factory, but higher grade, factory look. One other source for some versions of Ivoroid that does not do the hazmat charge will come to me-I'm having one of those embarrassing moments-they cater to b___o people-got it- First Quality Music. They only carry some of the w/b iterations. I, too, keep it stored in open air.

When I use it, I scrape the back so that any oxidation is gone-I have had the best CA gluing experience with Lee Valley's versions. I also do the "self-glue" bit with it-melting in acetone-use the little "club sandwich" sticks for application(again, LV) and LMII tape.

I think that here and on MIMF, the question recently came up about purfling ledges versus full height multi-layer binding. I plan to use a multi-layer on the 12 string. On that point, can anyone point me to larger(bulkier) traditional kerfed lining(I believe I have seen it someplace)? I was thinking of using it to help with construction integrity with a little deeper rout for the binding.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
Is ivoroid somewhat malleable? The swirls on the harp peghead taper off to a point. It would be nice to get a "pressed" fit if used. That is hard (if not impossible) to do with wood.

Mike
Author:  Haans [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
Bill James at http://www.axinc.net has about every iteration of celluloid available and he makes the stuff up himself. He does charge the Hazmet fee though.
Celluloid is somewhat malleable, and can be filed to a point, and also can be heated to bend, but will not turn into total mush like ABS. It can also be softened with acetone, and filled with a mix of acetone and dissolved celluloid (in this case ivoroid). Best to let it dry for a week after doing glueing.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
Miketobey wrote:
On that point, can anyone point me to larger(bulkier) traditional kerfed lining(I believe I have seen it someplace)? I was thinking of using it to help with construction integrity with a little deeper rout for the binding.

If you can't find thicker binding, it's a pretty simple matter to laminate a thin strip of solid wood to the binding (before or after it's glued), though you may not want the increased stiffness that will result.
I like the rims to be stiff, so I usually laminate binding in place, clean it up and then glue to the sides.

Cheers
John
Author:  Darrel Friesen [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
Pilgrims projects doesn't charge the Hazmat fee.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
Darrel Friesen wrote:
Pilgrims projects doesn't charge the Hazmat fee.

Pilgrims Projects is run by John Raterink. Google his name, and you can decide if you wish to do business with someone with his affiliations.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
John, holy carp fish, are you sure about that? I see the links, but is he one and the same or are some wires crossed here? Those in the know, please comment.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ivoroid Questions
Mike-
Send me a pm, please.
Let's keep on topic (Ivoroid) and do the politics thing offline!

John
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