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Cutting Binding....
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=27878		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Florian Schneider [ Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Cutting Binding....
Hi

I'm about to building my first acoustic guitar and I start wondering how to cut the binding channels.
I own a standard router and a dremel, but can't afford a laminate trimmer at the moment. I know there have been threats dealing with the Stewmac Dremel attachment and most of you don't like it. But will I get the job done with it?
I don't mind taking several passes or "wasting" some time as I'm building for myself.

I'm sure that a jig using a laminate trimmer will get the job done quicker and in that time more precise, but don't you think that I'll be able to cut perfect binding and purfling channels with the Stewmac set, too?

Thanks for your help!

Greetings,
Florian
Author:  Quine [ Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
I bought the Stew Mac edge guide and screwed it to a new base for my router....works great!
I've tried several bases for the dremmel, including stew mac's, and I haven't found one that can really hold the bit steady like a real router or laminate trimmer. I always got a tiny bit of sideways kick at the bit that will show up as a gap later. I think the dremmel chuck is just more flexible.
I'd go with the router and some type of edge guide set up.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
Florian-
I used a Dremel to cut the binding channels on my first guitar - many years ago. It re-defined 'light cut' for me- you really have to take many very light cuts to get good results. It's also a bit tricky finding good bits for the job with the 1/8" shaft.
But it can be done. I don't think I'd pay the $$ for a commercial jig for a Dremel, though.

You can use a full-size router- again having a good bit is very important. One possibility is to use a router 'table' setup (you can make your own quite easily- just an open box that you clamp to the bench).
This was described in David Russell Young's book, which has some good 'low-tech' and economical ideas from the 'olden times'. ;)
Attachment:
Young binding sm3.jpg

Attachment:
Young binding sm2.jpg

It does work- I built a few guitars with that setup for cutting binding ledges.
No matter what jig you use, you need to double check the ledge dimensions with a piece of scrap binding.

Cheers
John
Author:  Matt Shumway [ Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
I did the binding for my first a few months ago and used a Dremel. In my experience the problem isnt with the Dremel, you can do a couple of passes and get a decent cut, the problem is with the jig used to run the dremel along the side. There are a few different style jigs out there. I used one that ran along the sides mostly, with just a little on the top edge. My results were crap, but im a first time builder too... ledge was too wide in some spots, not wide enough in others... just very inconsistent, and my purfling and binding are very ugly because of it.

Since I don't really want to shell out the big bucks for a nice setup (laminate trimmer plus Stewmac Perfect Binding jig, or something similar) I plan on buying an LMI gramil for my next guitar. It will take a lot longer but I think if I'm careful it will be a lot more exact.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
Just an idea. . . .


Image
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
Michael-
What's the tool you made by modifying the marking gauge?
Some sort of scraper?

Cheers
John
Author:  Michael.N. [ Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
It's not a marking gauge but a cutting gauge. It's used for the cut on the sides, much easier and quicker than using a purfling cutter.

Here's another. I just stick in a scalpel blade. It has been modified recently by adding a small brass block at the bottom to give it more weight. I think the low centre of gravity helps. Don't forget the candle wax - old time trick.

Image
Author:  wbergman [ Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
Similar to the post attached to the router table, you can clamp a post to the base of your router. The post is partly hollow on the end so that the cutter is a bit recessed into it and projects only the depth of the channel you want to cut. Make sure it is clamped tight and do not remove it until all the channels are cut, because you will not get it lined up exactly the same depth if you move it.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
Michael.N. wrote:
It's not a marking gauge but a cutting gauge. It's used for the cut on the sides, much easier and quicker than using a purfling cutter.

I'm a bit dense, I guess...how does it work? It looks to me like a chunk of 1/4" thick mortising chisel , next to a round metal boss.....

[uncle]
Attachment:
Michael N purfling cutter crop.jpg
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
Michael.N. wrote:
Here's another. I just stick in a scalpel blade. It has been modified recently by adding a small brass block at the bottom to give it more weight. I think the low centre of gravity helps. Don't forget the candle wax - old time trick.


Nice homebuilt tools!
I can't imagine cutting a ledge deep enough for binding by hand, using a scalpel blade, but it must work .

A series of pictures/tutorial some time would be great.

Thanks.
Author:  Matt Shumway [ Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
JohnAbercrombie wrote:
A series of pictures/tutorial some time would be great.

Thanks.



here here!!
Author:  AlexanderLou3 [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
I must be dense too. Not quite following that. I thought he was saying the scalpel blade one was for cutting the end of the binding where they meet at the heel perfectly. I'd love to see a demonstration of its real use though.

My Dad made this for us to use. The idea we got it from used parts from a lazy susan but we just used some old chair rollers at the base there. The parallelogram keeps the router perfectly flat and the arm extends with (2) 22" Drawer slides. A rounded router base was also constructed out of wood so it conforms with the slight dome of a guitar back and top.

Image
Author:  Michael.N. [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
The cutting gauge is exactly that. a cutting gauge. I haven't modified it in any way. The round metal boss is there so that the knurled locking screw has a metal thread in which it engages. What you are thinking is some type of cutter or scraper is in fact a brass wedge that secures the blade. Both that and the blade came with the gauge. This gauge is used to cut the binding channel on the sides only. in other words it defines the binding depth. It's a bit of a fancy cutting gauge, being in Rosewood and Brass. You can get perfectly adequate ones made of Beech - although the modern plastic locking screws are prone to breaking. If you remove the head of such a gauge and round or contour the second face (so that it can negotiate the waist of a Guitar) you have a complete purfling cutter. The flat face (as it is intended to be used) will cut the purfling line for the Sounfboard and the Back - apart from the waist area of course. Unscrew the head and flip it to the contoured side and it will then negotiate the waist area. I no longer use a cutting gauge for the purfling because I have the alternatives. They are a little easier to use for that procedure but for the cut on the sides I still use the cutting gauge.
The scalpel blade is used in one of the purfling cutters, largely because I'm too lazy to sharpen thicker blades. To the thickness of a soundboard or a Back the scalpel blade works fine, although you will have to score to a limited depth and pare away the waste with a chisel before making a deeper cut with the scalpel blade. Once it's through the Back/Soundboard I switch to a Violin makers knife used freehand - that goes very quickly because I only have to meet the scribed line made by the cutting gauge.
I also make my binding the same thickness (or a touch more) as my sides. Make them any thinner and your channel will start to look a little messy.
Author:  senunkan [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
I did binding / purfling channels both ways: using hand tools and trimmer.
I made a hand tool like a marking gauge, using scrap woods but not as nice as what Michael did.
Well they do work properly.

The blade was from a cheap carving tool which I extracted the skew blade.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
I did my first couple by hand, and made this combination, circle cutter/binding & purfling cutter. I made a slicing blade for softer woods out of a jigsaw blade, and a scraping type of cutter out of another jigsaw blade. The scraping type cutter works well in hardwoods with grains that don't follow the line of the cut, which tend to pull a slicing type of cutter off line a bit.

Circle cutter alone.
Image

With binding - purfling attachment.
Image

I think there is a tutorial in the tut forum on how I made it FWIW.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
Thanks for the info and pics, guys.
Author:  Antonio [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
senunkan wrote:
I did binding / purfling channels both ways: using hand tools and trimmer.


Hi Sen,
I have a tool like yours but there is something I would like to ask you. On tour 2nd picture you are marking the depth and the size of the binding on the sides.
From this point how do proceed? you use a chisel or do you use your tool from the top side to cut all through the sides?
With a chisel how do you control the depth of the cut?
I hope this is clear.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
The key to control is cutting to depth with the knife on the tool, then you can judge, by keeping the chisel level. It's amazing how accurate the eye is. A little variation in depth will not create a problem on purfling depth, unless you sand through it, but if it varies a couple of tenths of a mm in depth, you won't find a problem, and you'll level it out on the top anyway. The only critical depth is the binding depth, and you'll cut a line for that anyway. When cutting the binding ledge, it's a good idea to have a piece of the binding you can check with often, as you remove the waste with the chisel.
Author:  senunkan [ Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
I forgot to mentioned that I made the purfling cutter tool based on Waddy's purfling / rosette cutter but a simpler version.
Like what Waddy has mentioned, the marking tool is to scribe the line; the height of the binding.
As for removing the waste material I did many passes; scribing , removing, scribing ... until the thickness of the binding is reached; checking with the actual binding always.
I use a paring chisel (with a long blade) so that I have better control on how much material to remove.
At the waist area, I reverse the blade with bevel facing in, so that I can follow the waist curve.
The good thing about hand tools is that it can remove the material bit by bit and have good control.
Well the bad thing for me is that it's slower (because I am still new to using chisels).
Author:  Antonio [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
Thank you Sen for your answer.
Author:  Florian Schneider [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
Thanks a lot for your help guys! bliss

I think I'll get my hands on a good marking gauge and try cutting the channels by hand. If this doesn't work, I can still try some solutions from other tipps.

Greetings,
Florian
Author:  Lillian F-W [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
Flori, a marking gauge that you can buy probably won't work for you unless you are willing to do some major mods to it. The bearing surface is going to be too wide to get into the waist area. You can see this in the picture of the three gauges that Michael N. posted.

If you are going to buy something to cut/mark them by hand, go with the LMI gramil http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Binding+Tools&NameProdHeader=Schneider+Gramil The blade is a bit small, but it can be sharpened. When you can, swap it out with the replacement blade for Sloane binding cutter to. Sam clued me in on that one. Said its longer and a direct replacement.
It is a metal version of the small gauge that Michael N. showed. BTW, nicely done Michael.
Author:  alan stassforth [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
mike, waddy, sen, thanks. my last build had to re-bind the back, because of the weird countours of the back, and i did it by hand with the sloane hand cutter. i then looked at many vids on how to set up a router to stay parallel, and blah blah blah. when i sharpened the sloane cutter, which hasn't been used in years, i got a cleaner ledge than with a router. so, my conclusion is, unless one is building many gits, set up for it, if not, do it by hand, doesn't take that long.
Author:  alan stassforth [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
mike, waddy, thanks. my last build had to re-bind the back, because of the weird countours of the back, and i did it by hand with the sloane hand cutter. i then looked at many vids on how to set up a router to stay parallel, and blah blah blah. when i sharpened the sloane cutter, which hasn't been used in years, i got a cleaner ledge than with a router. so, my conclusion is, unless one is building many gits, set up for it, if not, do it by hand, doesn't take that long.
Author:  Florian Schneider [ Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cutting Binding....
Lillian F-W wrote:
Flori, a marking gauge that you can buy probably won't work for you unless you are willing to do some major mods to it. The bearing surface is going to be too wide to get into the waist area. You can see this in the picture of the three gauges that Michael N. posted.

If you are going to buy something to cut/mark them by hand, go with the LMI gramil http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Binding+Tools&NameProdHeader=Schneider+Gramil The blade is a bit small, but it can be sharpened. When you can, swap it out with the replacement blade for Sloane binding cutter to. Sam clued me in on that one. Said its longer and a direct replacement.
It is a metal version of the small gauge that Michael N. showed. BTW, nicely done Michael.



Thanks Lili for pointing this out.

I've been thinking about getting the Schneider gramil for a while, but I was hoping to avoid ordering anything from LMII, because ordering such a small item doesn't make much sense shipping wise and so I'd have to order more stuff... My financial situation says no no, but my luthier mind says yes yes ;)
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