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I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
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Author:  Paul Burner [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
Tonight I HATE this hobby. It is a waste of my most precious resource - TIME.

I could have gone biking or kayaking with my wife - or I could have gone to the local outdoor Jazz concert they have on Tuesday evenings in June. But I chose to stay home and work on a guitars.

Tonight I spent 4 hours trying to do something that should take about 10 minutes. Make a perfect seam for a guitar back so I can glue it.

I don't have a shooting board and have ZERO experience with wood planes (looks like it's time to get some experience). I don't have a jointer - and don't even have a table saw. I just don't have the room in the half of the garage I have taken over - in addition to the drum sander, band saw, spindle sander, work bench, belt sander, two bikes, a car, a kayak, the mower, the snow blower, and all kinds of other stuff.

So I had a friend who teaches shop at a local high school make me a shooting board of sorts - but it is just a guide for my flush cut router. He says this is a GREAT way to do what I'm trying to do. He says they seam veneers this way all the time.

I sandwich my back pieces between two boards that he ran through his jointer for me (with a little overhang) - run the flush cut bit down along the bottom board as a guide - and voila - perfect seam - NOT!!!!

So I pull out something like this to tweak the joint - and chase my tail over and over and over again.

Attachment:
p17-2.jpg


It's nights like these that make me want to throw in the towel.

I know it is all about the tools - but dang it - I'm ticked off.

What a waste!



gaah [headinwall]
Author:  alan stassforth [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
whoa paul. i know what you mean. it'll pass, it's probably in your blood to build. i can't stop.
hey, i've always got good results joining the back plates by straight line rip on a shooter board, or like you did,
then contact adhesive some 80 grit to the narrow side of a long level,
stack the two plates on a table top with the top one overhanging the other by an 1/8" or so, then sand away for a bit.
let the wide side of the level sit on the table so the edge of the plate will be square with it.
put the one that was on the bottom on the top, with the 1/8" overhang, and sand away for a while, then check your joint.
usually a ten minute process, and no fancy tools.
good luck, and don't give up.
hope it makes sense.
alan
Author:  Kent Chasson [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
Hang in there Paul. That kind of frustration goes away after about......hmmmm.......I'll get back to you on that.

If you are looking for opinions, any of those methods can work but they all take time to dial in and each has a different set of problems. If it were me and I was short of room for a good jointer, I'd get set up with a shooting board and a sharp plane. The key is to learn on scrap. That method is the quietest, cleanest, and it takes up the least amount of space.

Good luck.
Author:  SimonF [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
Hi Paul,
A quick tip for you if you are having trouble joining the plates. I occasionally have to resort to this when doing hard to plane woods like African Blackwood with a small spot of crazy grain near the centerline.

IF you are to using sandpaper -- make certain that you have a small gap in the center of the piece. If not, the chances are you will end up sanding more at the ends and less of the middle -- giving you a gap at the ends. Also, sand only in one direction - I find pushing the piece works best for me.

With a particularly tricky set, I have planed the middle more than the ends. Then a few strokes on a flat surface with adhesive sandpaper will take care of the ends.

Best of Luck,
Simon
Author:  Bob Shanklin [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
Paul

If you have Lutherie Tools from GAL, there is a router jig on page 67, for jointing tops and backs. If you don't have the book, here is a link to a few pics and a brief explanation on using it from someone who built one. Pretty easy to build just from the pics.
http://ag.arizona.edu/~steidl/RouterJig.html

Bob
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
I know u don't want to hear this, but two shots across the jointer and one or two passes on the granite slab with sandpaper, and I am done.

The FIRST tool I bought was a Rigid Spindle sander. The second was a jointer off craigslist (dam good one too, Jet 6", closed stand) and the third was a 10-20 drum sander. With those, I built my first guitar. But in this business, there are many ways to skin a cat and it looks like you found one.

BTW, I use the Spanish clamping system to join top and back sets. I thickness sand AFTER that. EVEN on the 10-20! You cannot see a seam period done that way. I forget who told me to do it that way, but I sure do appreciate that tip!

Mike
Author:  DennisK [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
Look on the bright side, you didn't waste any materials or previous work. Just keep practicing and trying different methods until you find your favorite. I like the shooting board and hand plane. I started by jointing some cheap practice sides. If you can get a good joint on boards that long, tops and backs aren't so tough :mrgreen:
Then scruff them up and do it again a couple times.

A shooting board is just about the easiest thing in the world to make. I found an old scrap of OSB about the right length, and screwed a bit of 1x2 or something to it. I don't use a ramped board, because I have a hard time getting my plane blade rotated absolutely perfect.

Anyway, it took me several hours to get the technique down. I kept getting small gaps at the ends of the boards. Eventually I got the hang of varying the amount of pressure and where it's applied on the plane to counter the gaps. So I'd selectively plane until I had it almost perfect, and then do one or two full length runs for the final joint. Once I could do it on sides, the top and back went quickly.

Now here's the kicker- later when I bought a real straightedge, I checked my planes, and the one I use for jointing is quite concave. So that's why I had to adjust pressure so carefully to avoid gaps at the ends laughing6-hehe
Not to mention it's a little short for jointing, at about 9 1/2 inches long.

So... first, check your tools. With a good plane, it's probably almost too easy.
Author:  fingerstyle1978 [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
You don't need a jointer or a ton of room. You need one of these!

Image

I had the same difficulties and the wrong sized plane. Some quick Ebay shopping, a quick read on truing and sharpening the planes, a shooting board and my problem was solved.

You'll very likely love planes after you get one tuned and use it. Great tools. You can save some money by buying Miller's Falls instead of Stanley's. I have Stanley no. 3 through no. 8 or the Miller's Falls equivalent. For this job you need just one. A no. 5, no. 6 or no. 7. Here are the size equivalents. S=Stanley; MF=Miller's Falls
S no. 3 = MF no. 8; 8" x 2"
S no. 4 = MF no. 9; 9" x 2"
S no. 5 = MF no. 14; 14" x 2"
S no. 6 = MF no. 18; 18" x 2 3/8"
S no. 7 = MF no. 22; 22" x 2 3/8"
S no. 8 = MF no. 24; 24" x 2 5/8"

Just be sure that they have most of their japanning and there are no cracks or chips. Also look at the mouths, the hole is sometimes enlarged to remove obvious flaws. If it is proper, the blade should fit through with a small amount of space for shavings. It should not be a huge gap. Have fun shopping. I went through this same frustration a couple weeks ago and all I really got out of it was a new hobby. Collecting planes. Hahaha. Oh and some nice seams.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
sorry for my ignorance... but what is japaning? does it involve taking the plane or its blade to Japan?
Author:  fingerstyle1978 [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
Tai Fu wrote:
sorry for my ignorance... but what is japaning? does it involve taking the plane or its blade to Japan?


Japanning is simply the very hard, thick paint that is used on the inside walls and the base of the plane in order to protect it from the elements. It is like an enamel or something similar, it almost looks metallic. It was applied in heat cured layers and smoothed. On the plane pictured in my earlier post, it would be the black area on the inside. You wouldn't want to spend much money on a old plane that had less than 90 percent of the japanning present.

Hope that helps.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
All I got is wooden planes, so they wouldn't have japaning even though their design is of a Japanese origin...
Author:  fingerstyle1978 [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
Tai Fu wrote:
All I got is wooden planes, so they wouldn't have japaning even though their design is of a Japanese origin...


Correct. Wooden planes are ok, but the metal base planes are much easier to use and maintain. I know you are having trouble finding them at a decent price, but keep your eyes open for a good deal. Even if you have to restore one yourself, it's a task worth taking the time to do given the benefits of having a proper tool. You don't need a Lie Neilson, a 70 year old semi rusty Stanley can be turned into an equally serviceable tool. Even Japanning can be redone/improvised with automotive metallic paint. Rust comes off easily with fine grit sandpaper while you true the sole and sides. After that just sharpen the blades, oil and you are good to go. I have about 11 planes that I refurbed for under $400.00.

Good luck.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
4 hours wasted. All in all I'm probably up to 4,000 hours and still counting, albeit not on just one process. It's just part of the learning curve I'm afraid. I've been at this too many years and yet last week I made 5 multi lined, closed ring rosettes. The last one turned out 'good enough', the rest went in the bin. I think I 'wasted' at least 12 hours that week. Then again I'm pretty sure I know how to do it right now.
I've just joined a Spruce top with a hand plane. I swear the glue was on after no more than 5 minutes from starting. A 'difficult Rosewood Back took me 25 minutes but that really is the exception. At one time I would have been doing cartwheels in the street if jointing a Rosewood Back was taking me only 25 minutes.
Learn to set up, sharpen and use a Handplane. Learn to vary the pressure as you shoot the board. Most of all learn to get that blade truly sharp. Even if you decide to use a power tool or an abrasive for jointing you will not have wasted any time on learning about the hand plane.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
Nothing wrong with wooden planes. Again, you just have to gain experience with them. People think they take a long time to adjust but use them on a regular basis and they are probably faster to adjust than Mr. Backlash Stanley. If you thickness Backs, Sides and Tops in any quantity they really do begin to offer a real advantage over their metal counterparts.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
fingerstyle1978 wrote:
Tai Fu wrote:
All I got is wooden planes, so they wouldn't have japaning even though their design is of a Japanese origin...


Correct. Wooden planes are ok, but the metal base planes are much easier to use and maintain. I know you are having trouble finding them at a decent price, but keep your eyes open for a good deal. Even if you have to restore one yourself, it's a task worth taking the time to do given the benefits of having a proper tool. You don't need a Lie Neilson, a 70 year old semi rusty Stanley can be turned into an equally serviceable tool. Even Japanning can be redone/improvised with automotive metallic paint. Rust comes off easily with fine grit sandpaper while you true the sole and sides. After that just sharpen the blades, oil and you are good to go. I have about 11 planes that I refurbed for under $400.00.

Good luck.


No thanks.. I tried ebay, apart from there being a ton of xenophobic sellers who only ships to lower 48 (because filling out one more paperwork is too much work) even if I got an old #6 or 7 from ebay for less than 50 dollars, the shipping will be over 100 dollars, by the time I got it would make even the best wooden plane available in Taiwan look cheap. I know some have recommended ebay.au but people there are equally xenophobic (no shipment out of AU). I managed to find a really cheap Western style (looks to be a #4 smoothing plane) at a supermarket one time... but I never saw it again. This guy here : http://www.dastool.com.tw/m_mall_list.p ... bef2b03900 sells a #5 (and sells a stewmac mini-cam clamp cheaper than stewmac too... how do they do that?) but the price is still a little high at about 100 dollars. I do not know how good they are. Was kinda hoping or a really cheap, old plane that I can restore to service with a bit of work and put a hock or something blade in it. And I'd love to find a jointer plane too but those things are difficult to find, even the wooden ones.
Author:  woody b [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
Somedays it's just best to take a break. The world isn't going to end if you spend an afternoon doing something besides building guitars.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
woody b wrote:
Somedays it's just best to take a break. The world isn't going to end if you spend an afternoon doing something besides building guitars.


Great advice...That's why they call him Woody...I think! :mrgreen:

In the early days, every time I became frustrated with one of the many new processes, I would often struggle. I also would often go out and play a round of golf to relieve my frustration. After 8 years, I now play much less golf. It's not that I encounter fewer frustrations...just different challenges and sometimes frustrations. The difference now is that my tolerance for frustration has changed and my attention span for solving problems has increased. You'll evolve into a comfort zone as you do more and more. Along the way, try to master certain operations...like planing. It helps the quality of your work as well as the health of your psyche.

Oh, BTW...before guitarbuilding my handicap was 10 . After 8 years it's up to 16 and I've become an ATM machine for my golf buddies! The good news is that my susceptibility to skin cancer has been significantly reduced...so I've got that going for me. [:Y:]
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
Filippo Morelli wrote:
Hey Mike, do you saw with your teeth? wow7-eyes beehive pizza

Filippo

Ok, perhaps my post was not very helpful... Sorry. As for sawing, I did it by hand or with a jigsaw, neck was pre-made.
Author:  Frank Cousins [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
NOt done many as a newbie but tips I picked up from my mentor, has reduced the frustration somewhat - some of these tips are already listed above but heregoes:

1. Very sharp plane with a FLAT base - thats the only trouble with cheaper brands or older planes as you may have to grinfd the base flat - I am so lucky in that I have a nice LN no 5 1/2 which was perfect from the box...
2. Shooting board - if you have time, make one up with a sloping rest for your wood to sit on.. this way when you are working on very dense woods you use more of the blade ratherthan one small section, and thus it will stay sharp longer.
3. when close, set up plane to very fine depth and often only 1 stroke will be enough.

The hardest part for me is actually knowing which half of the back pieces is the best to remove the wood from when you have checked against the light... despite several lessons on this, I still get confused so any hints and tip on that score would be much appreciated...
Author:  fingerstyle1978 [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
JJ Donohue wrote:
woody b wrote:
Somedays it's just best to take a break. The world isn't going to end if you spend an afternoon doing something besides building guitars.


Great advice...That's why they call him Woody...I think! :mrgreen:

In the early days, every time I became frustrated with one of the many new processes, I would often struggle. I also would often go out and play a round of golf to relieve my frustration. After 8 years, I now play much less golf. It's not that I encounter fewer frustrations...just different challenges and sometimes frustrations. The difference now is that my tolerance for frustration has changed and my attention span for solving problems has increased. You'll evolve into a comfort zone as you do more and more. Along the way, try to master certain operations...like planing. It helps the quality of your work as well as the health of your psyche.

Oh, BTW...before guitar building my handicap was 10 . After 8 years it's up to 16 and I've become an ATM machine for my golf buddies! The good news is that my susceptibility to skin cancer has been significantly reduced...so I've got that going for me. [:Y:]


Playing a round of golf to relieve stress might be the worst advice that I have ever heard!!! Well when you have a swing like mine anyways. laughing6-hehe I am positively the worst golfer this side of the Mississippi.

Instead of building a guitar for a day, I might suggest playing one instead. I do enjoy golfing, but not when I am already frustrated. For those times I go to the gym...or pretty much anywhere other than a bar.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
I check against the light but with the joint running horizontal. if you have a gap in the middle, slide the top board in a horizontal direction whilst observing the gap. If the top board has concavity along it's length the gap will still show but it simply moves in the direction that you are sliding the wood. You only really need to slide it for a few inches, obviously there comes a point when it will start to close. If the bottom board is concave and you slide the top board, the gap tends to remain fixed in the same place. At least that's my take on it. I think after doing so many you just get a 'feel' for it.
Author:  fingerstyle1978 [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
Tai Fu wrote:
fingerstyle1978 wrote:
Tai Fu wrote:
All I got is wooden planes, so they wouldn't have japaning even though their design is of a Japanese origin...


Correct. Wooden planes are ok, but the metal base planes are much easier to use and maintain. I know you are having trouble finding them at a decent price, but keep your eyes open for a good deal. Even if you have to restore one yourself, it's a task worth taking the time to do given the benefits of having a proper tool. You don't need a Lie Neilson, a 70 year old semi rusty Stanley can be turned into an equally serviceable tool. Even Japanning can be redone/improvised with automotive metallic paint. Rust comes off easily with fine grit sandpaper while you true the sole and sides. After that just sharpen the blades, oil and you are good to go. I have about 11 planes that I refurbed for under $400.00.

Good luck.


No thanks.. I tried ebay, apart from there being a ton of xenophobic sellers who only ships to lower 48 (because filling out one more paperwork is too much work) even if I got an old #6 or 7 from ebay for less than 50 dollars, the shipping will be over 100 dollars, by the time I got it would make even the best wooden plane available in Taiwan look cheap. I know some have recommended ebay.au but people there are equally xenophobic (no shipment out of AU). I managed to find a really cheap Western style (looks to be a #4 smoothing plane) at a supermarket one time... but I never saw it again. This guy here : http://www.dastool.com.tw/m_mall_list.p ... bef2b03900 sells a #5 (and sells a stewmac mini-cam clamp cheaper than stewmac too... how do they do that?) but the price is still a little high at about 100 dollars. I do not know how good they are. Was kinda hoping or a really cheap, old plane that I can restore to service with a bit of work and put a hock or something blade in it. And I'd love to find a jointer plane too but those things are difficult to find, even the wooden ones.


When I get home I will check on postage for 3 planes to Taiwan. I recently ordered a couple pounds of abalone from Taiwan and I don't remember postage being so high after combining shipping for 6 types and grades of shell. Planes are heavier, but the difference should not be that great. I don't mind filling out the customs form if it will help you out. We have a bunch of them sitting at my house right now since my family ships me stuff here in the Middle East all the time.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
Please send me a PM

tell me how much all those weight and I can find out for you. The issue is the USPS charges more for postage to Taiwan and what Taiwan charges to send stuff to the US. Also to make things worse, they canceled the economy mail so that means the only way to ship a relatively small quantity of stuff (as in less than a truckload) is to use expensive airmail. It only costs like 50 dollars to send about 20Kg (which is about 40 lbs) by surface mail even if it took around 2 months but for airmail it will cost something like 200 US dollars to send that much to Taiwan. If you got relatives who are serving around East Asia you could perhaps send it APO/FPO then send it to Taiwan, or if the stuff is small enough to fit in a flat rate box, go that route too.

I think someone had started a petition to make USPS resume surface mail but that was many years ago. I am not sure what was the mentality behind that...
Author:  Miketobey [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
Tai Fu-please email me at "jetobeyatmsn.com"---I will try to get a decent #5 Stanley to you. They are 14 inches long and will do a fine job for tops and backs and other tasks. It would not be a beauty queen, but I will "Wicked Sharp"[tm] it and set it up for very fine cut before I send it. A form or two is no problem for me. We will have to ship cheapest way because I am on very limited income these days. The plane itself would be a gift. Mike T. (Thanks to a 12 step program, I now have TAS under control and rarely buy handtools nowadays-please don't tell my sponsor about the Boone planes!? gaah )

TO THE OP--- Google and save "Cian Perez"-- he is a good friend in Chicago who has taken the time to collect everything you ever needed to know about woodworking tools(hand and power). :lol: In my mind , the old Carson/McMahon bit---Johnny to Ed after "everything you ever wanted to know---"Not so, Hot Hide Glue Breath!"
Author:  Fred Tellier [ Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I'm about to start throwing things!!!!
What I did to finally get the hang of using my 22" plane and shooting board was to take a top set that I did not like and kept planing it till I had a good seam then messed it up and did it again. When I first started with the plane I would go nuts trying to get it right but after messing with that top set for a couple hours it suddenly came together. Now one of my fears of building has been eliminated.

Stick with it and master the plane and shooting board skills, who needs expensive machines or sand paper if you can plane.

Fred
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