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Met with the electrician today
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=27582		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Kelby [ Thu May 27, 2010 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Met with the electrician today
We bought a new house last month. It's exciting, but it's also painful. In our old house, I had spent 11 years getting the shop how I wanted it. The new place has a 3-car garage (the vast majority of which will be my shop), but there are only a couple of 110 outlets.

We have an electrician installing a solar panel system for our electricity needs, and as part of the package, he's putting a subpanel in the shop and wiring up all the 220 and 110 circuits I'll need. (I use the word "need" rather loosely. :D ) Today we laid out where it will all go.

It's nice to see it coming together. But it's also difficult to put in all this effort and energy just to get back to the same place I was (electrical-wise) in the last house. And once the circuits are in, I get to start making all the shelves and cabinets that are the equivalent of what I had in the last place.

It's fun getting the shop set up, but it'll be nice when I can start using the shop rather than building it. One of these days, I might even build guitars again!
Author:  brenbrenCT [ Thu May 27, 2010 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Met with the electrician today
Very cool.

I have a suggestion for you, and you could run this by your electrician. My electrician is a good friend so i get materials at a serious discount, but i installed one of these yesterday (well a similar one):

Image

http://www.mycleanair365.com/powerx-e3

He has one in his house and his bill fell from $180 to $70.

Essentially, this is a capacitor. It is connected to the panel using a 2 pole 20 Amp breaker. We all use machinery with motors. Each time a motor starts, it draws a large amount of current. The electrical company charges you 2 rates. One is usuage, the other is peak. Peak is charged at a MUCH higher rate with the rationale being that it is a greater strain on the grid when end-users are starting large motors.

This applies to a bandsaw motor, vacuum motor, planers, etc. But also, clothing dryers, fridge, air compressors, air conditioner compressors etc.

So a motor starts, this capacitor supplies additional current to the power busses in the panel, and the electric company doesn't see the peak.

I highly recommend them, and i don't own the company or own any shares :)
Author:  SteveCourtright [ Thu May 27, 2010 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Met with the electrician today
Kelby - I feel your pain. Hope to see guitars from you here soon.

Brendan. Very interesting device. Let us know if it lowers your bill as well.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Thu May 27, 2010 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Met with the electrician today
brenbrenCT wrote:
The electrical company charges you 2 rates. One is usuage, the other is peak. Peak is charged at a MUCH higher rate with the rationale being that it is a greater strain on the grid when end-users are starting large motors.


As far as I know, most Canadian/US residential locations still have meters that just measure total energy used (kilowatt-hrs). If your house has a 'smart' meter , you may be charged a different rate depending on your usage at different times of the day, peak use, etc.
Also, even in a home with a good-sized amateur woodworking shop, energy use by motor loads is usually less than heating loads like electric stoves, clothes dryers, water heaters etc- if these are present. Gas stoves/dryers etc will change this, of course.

John
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Thu May 27, 2010 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Met with the electrician today
SteveCourtright wrote:
Brendan. Very interesting device. Let us know if it lowers your bill as well.

[:Y:]
An internet search on 'power saver' will turn up some interesting reading.
Author:  sanaka [ Fri May 28, 2010 5:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Met with the electrician today
"Peak" rates, if your electric company tracks and charges them, have nothing to do with motor startup loads. This refers to energy used during peak usage hours during the day (like between 5-7 pm when everyone is getting home from work and making dinner). A motor startup draw would indeed look like a "peak" on a real time graph of electricity usage, but your electric company doesn't record usage this way.

The big capacitor device is for "power factor correction", which is apparently a real and significant issue in industrial settings - like lots of really big motors. I'm skeptical whether they're useful in residential or small shop usage. I installed one at a facility that has 7 or 8 refrigerators, on advice that this represented the kind of load that the device would help with. There was no real change in the electrical bill.

Peace,
Sanaka
Author:  brenbrenCT [ Fri May 28, 2010 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Met with the electrician today
sanaka wrote:
"Peak" rates, if your electric company tracks and charges them, have nothing to do with motor startup loads. This refers to energy used during peak usage hours during the day (like between 5-7 pm when everyone is getting home from work and making dinner). A motor startup draw would indeed look like a "peak" on a real time graph of electricity usage, but your electric company doesn't record usage this way.

The big capacitor device is for "power factor correction", which is apparently a real and significant issue in industrial settings - like lots of really big motors. I'm skeptical whether they're useful in residential or small shop usage. I installed one at a facility that has 7 or 8 refrigerators, on advice that this represented the kind of load that the device would help with. There was no real change in the electrical bill.

Peace,
Sanaka


well, i don't understand the theory, but his bill was reduced by half. And at least out here on the east coast with CL&P they charge a higher rate for "demand" which is peak KW. It is almost quadruple the rate charged for the service rate based on KW/H.

So we shall see spock, we shall see
Author:  sanaka [ Fri May 28, 2010 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Met with the electrician today
I could be wrong and your electric co. has some high tech startup draw detection tracking or something, but I've never heard of this being done. And I do hope the PFC capacitor reduces your bill [:Y:] . My one experience was a big meh though.

Peace
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Fri May 28, 2010 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Met with the electrician today
Sanaka, they are developing devices that can tell the power companies what an individual house is doing, part of the smart grid. The goal is to one day have appliances that are smart grid aware which the utility can shut down at certain times. I don't like it, it stinks of big brother, but cable companies already do it to some extent.
Author:  sanaka [ Fri May 28, 2010 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Met with the electrician today
Mike O'Melia wrote:
Sanaka, they are developing devices that can tell the power companies what an individual house is doing, part of the smart grid. The goal is to one day have appliances that are smart grid aware which the utility can shut down at certain times. I don't like it, it stinks of big brother, but cable companies already do it to some extent.


Yoiks :o Freedom is Slavery, man. I can see having grid-aware devices/homes, but a home-aware grid is, well, spooky to say the least. <shiver>

Peace,
Sanaka
Author:  Tai Fu [ Sat May 29, 2010 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Met with the electrician today
I have heard that PFC doesn't actually reduce electric bills, it makes it easier on the grid though so it's more for the benefit of the environment rather than to your bill. In Taiwan they charge based on how much you use, but the meter only record the total energy used, doesn't know peak or anything. I suspect many other electric companies also do this too... but anyways in my area the more electricity you use, the higher rate per kilowatt hour is charged. It's supposed to prevent people from using too much I guess. What sucks is people living in a co-op who shares account across multiple floors, everyone pays huge bills even though the usage is small.
Author:  Bob Garrish [ Sat May 29, 2010 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Met with the electrician today
At least the industrial rates here are based on both power factor (peak VS normal draw) and total usage, and I'm certain lots of other places do it as well. I'm not sure about the home rates, but from what I understand of the power factor billing the guy would have to be turning his washer and dryer off and on simultaneously every ten minutes all month to save 50% on his bill. They say 22% or so for an ideal industrial customer (lots of high starting load gear like big motors, big HVAC systems).
Author:  Kelby [ Sun May 30, 2010 12:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Met with the electrician today
The problem addressed by power factor correction devices is a real problem, and it has a real impact on rates for industrial customers. However, the way power companies here in the states charge residential customers does not take into account the issue resolved by power factor correction devices. See what Energy Star has to say: http://energystar.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/ ... faqid=4941
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