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Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
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Author:  coke_zero [ Fri May 21, 2010 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
Hello all,

I bought some Liquid Hide Glue and used it for joining & bracing my most recent top. It took about 40 minutes or so and I was able to un-clamp it was rock solid once it had dried. Today, I have tried to join the back (Padauk) I left it for 5 hours and wondered down to the shop, un-clamped it and it was still like the glue had just been applied. My first thought was the joint wasn't as good as I thought, so I got the plane out made a better joint and tried again. This time I left it for 6 hours and the same thing happened again. We are having unseasonable weather here in the UK at the moment (about 26C) so that probably didn't help but the bracing was done in similar weather. I have left it clamped overnight to see what happens.

After doing a bit of looking around online and found other people saying that it took an age to dry for them too. Has anyone else here had issues with this glue? Is it because the Padauk doesn't take to the glue the same way the more "spongy" cedar top?

I think I may try "proper" hide glue next but wanted to give this stuff a go and have 2 8oz bottles of it. It was one of those days where I had so much planned but got nothing done other than getting the sides down to 2mm. Very frustrating day indeed, especially as my next day off isn't until next Saturday [xx(].
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Fri May 21, 2010 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
Peter-
'Liquid Hide glue' has gotten pretty poor reviews- I'd save it for gluing labels (at most).
Fish glue is a good alternative (if you can get it in the UK)- good open time but dries glassy hard.
If you can't use hot hide glue or fish glue, I'd suggest a Titebond-type glue instead of the 'Liquid Hide' glue.

Cheers
John
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Fri May 21, 2010 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
Here's what I know about liquid hide glue. It has a much longer open time due to the fact that it contains urea. It is commonly used in the repair of furniture. I'm not aware of serious luthiers using liquid hide glue. My advice...use the real and pure HHG and enjoy the benefits as well as its consistent and predictable performance.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Fri May 21, 2010 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
I'm afraid it gets a rather bad press in Luthier circles. I bought some many years ago and I didn't get on with it. You may well be advised to ditch it and just use Titebond Original. Real Hide glue does have a bit of a learning curve but with a little knowledge and practice it just becomes second nature.
Fish glue is not available in the UK as far as I'm aware of. You can obtain it from Kremer Pigmente.
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Fri May 21, 2010 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
I use it mixed 1:1 with HHG to get more open time for some tasks, it dries as hard as "pure" HHG in that configuration.
According to Howard, when used alone it needs to be heated like HHG to work properly. Easy enough to put the bottle in a water bath.
I used it to glue a bridge years ago (cold) and the bridge started lifting after a couple of weeks.
Author:  coke_zero [ Fri May 21, 2010 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
Thanks for the replies.

i would like to use HHG, but what is an easy way to get it up to temperature accurately (and hold it there) without going out and spending what seems to be a huge amount for a glue pot? is there an easier way? Also, is there a difference between HHG and pearl glue?

(EDIT: I just found a glue pot on eBay for the first time ever, so hopefully I win it, if I don't question above ^^ :D )
Author:  Haans [ Fri May 21, 2010 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
Good luck Coke. I use it to glue stamps on letters...then I put a piece of tape over the stamp.
Author:  coke_zero [ Fri May 21, 2010 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
Is there structural issues with this glue or is it purely the drying time? If there is I will run down the shop and pull the gluing back apart.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Fri May 21, 2010 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
coke_zero wrote:
i would like to use HHG, but what is an easy way to get it up to temperature accurately (and hold it there) without going out and spending what seems to be a huge amount for a glue pot? is there an easier way?


I've used a 'baby bottle warmer' to heat up HHG, but I don't use it much, so it's usually for 'one-shot' use. (I don't keep the glue pot bubbling in the corner like the old-tyme cabinet makers.....)
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Fri May 21, 2010 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
coke_zero wrote:
Is there structural issues with this glue or is it purely the drying time? If there is I will run down the shop and pull the gluing back apart.


I wouldn't go too crazy with tearing apart your braced top....
You could do a test - glue some scrap cedar and then break and see if the joint fails.

If the back is just one joint still, (no bracing or reinforcement) I'd lay some hot water on it and take it apart.
You don't want to be lying awake nights worrying about it, right? gaah

Cheers
John
Author:  Haans [ Fri May 21, 2010 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
I don't trust it for structural reasons (maybe you caught that!). I'd tear it apart.
Author:  Colin S [ Sat May 22, 2010 3:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
coke_zero wrote:
Thanks for the replies.

i would like to use HHG, but what is an easy way to get it up to temperature accurately (and hold it there) without going out and spending what seems to be a huge amount for a glue pot? is there an easier way? Also, is there a difference between HHG and pearl glue?

(EDIT: I just found a glue pot on eBay for the first time ever, so hopefully I win it, if I don't question above ^^ :D )


I like to get my HHG from LMI, they sell the 192 clear glue and one pound tub will last for many, many guitars. Also on the glue pot, I don't know many people that use a 'glue pot', but most use some form of slow cooker or baby bottle warmer. I bought an Avent express baby bottler warmer on eBay for £5 which has lasted me many years so far and holds temperature very reliably. There are usually a dozen or so of these on UK eBay at any one time, here's what I mean:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Advent-Baby-Bottle-Warmer-/220606647383?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Baby_Baby_Feeding_Bottle_Warmers_Coolers_LE&hash=item335d2e4c57

For fish glue I buy mine from Kremer pigmente in Germany very reasonably, one €7 bottle will be enough for probably four or five guitars at least. I believe that Madinter sells the Lee Valley fish glue. I use HHG for braces and bridge and fish glue for everything else.

Colin
Author:  Michael.N. [ Sat May 22, 2010 3:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
coke_zero wrote:
Thanks for the replies.

i would like to use HHG, but what is an easy way to get it up to temperature accurately (and hold it there) without going out and spending what seems to be a huge amount for a glue pot? is there an easier way? Also, is there a difference between HHG and pearl glue?

(EDIT: I just found a glue pot on eBay for the first time ever, so hopefully I win it, if I don't question above ^^ :D )


The glue pots used by general woodworkers tend to be a little large for the quantities of glue that we use. A really good alternative is the Lindam Baby bottle warmer - easily available in the UK for very little. Note that some warmers barely reach the desired temperature but the Lindam does so easily. The temperature variation is around 4 degrees C - no big deal. Buy a tiny bottle of PVA and use the containeri for the HHG, place 3 or 4 marbles inside the bottle. Those act both as a weight and help heat retention. You can use the spout on the bottle or simply unscrew the lid and use a brush.

Pearl glue is usually 'bone glue' rather than Hide. It is primarily sold for veneering purposes although it is perfectly fine for Guitars and other wood projects. I used the Liberon? stuff for a couple of years before ordering Hide from Kremer.
Author:  coke_zero [ Sat May 22, 2010 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
Thanks for all the advice people. I pulled the back apart and have ordered some HHG. I would rather do it knowing the joint is solid. I have bid on the glue pot but won't go anymore than I have bid so if I don't win I'll go for the alternatives that have been suggested.
Author:  sparkyman [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
Hi all,

New to the forum as I'm seriously considering having a go at building an acoustic. Having spent the last 12 months "paving the way" I'm now appraching the time when I'm able to make a start.

This all started way back in 2008 when I got the bug. First things first, I need a decent wookshop as working out of the garden shed would have it's limitations. Over the last 2 springs/summers I've mangaged to finish the workshop, whilst equipping it with a few power & hand tools of reasonable quality. I've also sourced a supply of various timbers so I have a fiar selection from which to choose. I've also spent many, many hours reading and watching DVD's on the processes involved and I'm now pretty confident I can do this.

I'm now looking at more detailed questions about lutherie, and the first I'd like to pose is "which glue" ?

Obviously there is HHG which seems the traditional adhesive route as I realise the glue plays a part in the overall tone of the finished instrument. I'm not sure if HHG is the way forward for a rank beginner though ?

I've been in touch with a well know & repspected luthier who has been very friendly in pointing the way........without divulging any specific details ! On the question of glue, he has replied that he uses 5/6 different types, each application specific ?

I have the usuall Titebonds I-III and the Polyurethane. I've only used the III once whilst laminating Western Australian Jarrah for the workbench build.......the joints started seperating after a few days....thats when I started using the Polyurethane which, although messy, certainly does the job (not so good for lutherie work though I guess due to its expanding, airy nature ?)

Anyway, I was wondering what the genral consensus is as to which glue I should use for my first build, OR what glues I should be using for various aspects of the build. I'm still doing a bit of research on the subject but I was interested to hear comments from those with a few builds behind them.

Thanks for your time [:Y:]
Author:  Corky Long [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
Hi Sparky,

For your first build I'd use Titebond. Forgiving, sufficient open time, inexpensive, and good results. Some very experienced luthiers use it for just about everything. There are some applications where Cyanoacrylate glue and epoxies are very useful, but for a first build I think you can use it for almost everything, certainly the vast majority of applications. My two cents.

I use hot hide glue, and love it, but I wouldn't recommend it on a first build.

Have fun.
Author:  Hank Mauel [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
Try here for an experts tutorial on hide glue and an easy, inexpensive heating system:

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier ... glue1.html
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
One problem with liquid hide glues is that the chemicals they use seem to keep working in the bottle over time. At first they just keep it from gelling, but it dries OK. Then the dry time is extended, and the glue seems more prone to softening in high humidity. Then it just stops working at all. I've never heard of a bottle going bad as quickly as all that, but it's odd stuff. My own experience with it amply supports the low opinion most luthiers have of it.

I did mention thwe addition of urea to liquid hide glue on line once, and got a little note from the folks at Franklin assuring me that they don't use that, and touting the advantages of the stuff they do use. That was a long time ago, and I don't remember what they use, but it seems to hav many of the same problems as urea.

I've never tried heating liquid hide glue, and have to wonder if heat destroys the chemical liquifiers.
Author:  sparkyman [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Titebond Liquid Hide Glue
.....thats great - Titebond I it is then. Thanks for the input and the links - all very interesting. I hope to make a start in the new year (got to finish the workbench first !)

Naturally, I'll no doubt have numerous questions in the near future, so I look forward to liasing with you again soon.

Have a Happy Christmas

Best Regards
Will
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