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Hi, the post offering the SJ template got me to looking about, and based on the info I can find, I'm still not sure what the best plan of attack is by way of some plans for guitar #1 in the series Will likely build a few to same sizing specs after that based on the current plan, since I'll be building molds etc ...

Have been doing lots of reading (Cumpiano & web) & lots of buying stuff. Thought has occurred to me that maybe I should have just bought a real real real nice already built guitar. Too late now ... too little money left

Have been thinking I'll be building a pretty standard dread with around a 16" lower bout, 20" long, 25.4 scale. Have collected most of the parts and a good number of tools etc by now ... will be building some forms, jigs etc. over next little while.

I guess some good plans or a good template would make things easier to start out & to build the forms etc ... Recommendations for that size dread? Stew-Mac Herringbone? Something else?

Also wondering what are the most standard radii for top & back for that size dread - can i get away with one dish for both or am i best to use two? (will be using go-bars, so i guess a dish(es) would make things a lot easier?)

Thanks for your ideas

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If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey

Hi Al,

Welcome to the OLF!
Regarding the dish, whatever top and back radii you decide upon you can create one dish with both. Simply make the dish blank thick enough to accommodate a radius on either side.

Good luck - exciting times!

Rick

Al-
Welcome to the OLF!
Not sure if I understand your question, but most common steel-string designs have a different curvature for the back vs soundboard, so you will need two different surfaces. Whether you put those on one piece of MDF or two is a separate question.
I have two dishes, and I use the flat side of one (with another sanding disk attached) for flat sanding jobs. It comes in handy.
It's good to do a lot of research and reading before starting a guitar build- especially if it is one of your first. So, you are on the right track. Once you start, though, I'd recommend sticking with one method/plan (rather than mix 'n match) - sometimes differences which seem quite minor can add up to a major headache at the end. And, there are big differences in detail/accuracy between plans out there in the marketplace (and in the free to download world as well). If you don't get the answers you are looking for in this thread, a new thread with 'Best Martin dread plan?' or similar for the title will get some action.

If you are making a Martin-type guitar, many folks find the UMGF a good resource, I think.
http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/

Cheers
John

Thanks for the replies

Sorry if I lost my questions in the banter & wasn't too clear, but the main questions are:

1. What are some good plans and/or a good template to base a 16" dread with a 25.4 scale on?

2. For that size dread, what're the generally accepted standard radius arches for the top & back?

Lots of item descriptions for plans don't specify what size guitar you'll wind up with, and the models they're based on may have had different bout sizes over the years etc., so am curious as to some good plans for near a 16" dread.

Also, you can buy radius dishes in lots of sizes, but i've found it hard to find advice on which ones will work well for what size giutar.

Thanks again:)

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If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey

Personally I'd go for the J45 plan!

The dread plans and template from StewMac are good. The last time I ordered som stuff from Martin, I also ordered a new dread plan, since my really old one was pretty ragged. The one they sent me was the StewMac plan. I don't really use the plans much any more, but just wanted a fresh copy.
I do have the StewMac dread template and like it. You can also make your own template based on the plans that you buy.

Thanks again for the replies & the welcomes, and thanks Todd for the links and tips (nice looking guitars there too) - will check those out for sure. Yeah I figured those StewMac herringbone plans could be the way to go, so I'll order a set

Any hints as to what size radius bowls I should be looking for for that herringbone dread? or i guess those can be made as well? i guess they are the easiest way to go when using go-bars for the clamping?

Thanks again guys - really appreciate all the advice

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If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey

I use a 28' radius top and 15' radius back.

Al-
Shane Neifer in BC (HighMountainTonewoods- see link at top of page) makes dishes for sale if you don't want to make your own.
If you decide you want to use fiberglass rods, send me a pm- I'll sell you mine, since I prefer using wooden sticks.
Postage within Canada should be reasonable.

Cheers
John

Thanks again for the tips ... maybe i'll try 15/28 as well. i'm kinda looking at an OM over the dread now possibly as well tho

John thanks, but I ordered some 3/16 4' rods (to cut in half) a few days ago already found them for $0.22 a foot here btw in case anyone else looking: http://www.kitebuilder.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/33_66/products_id/279?osCsid=255f05bc7e9fb482a2e45f0090036703 seemed like a pretty good deal to me.

cheers & thanks again!

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If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey

Probably frowned apon by the experienced boys ... but it is possible to do this without a dish - I had to because I did not have one at the time or a go bar press ... but I had a load of Cam clamps - just radiused the braces and clamped them on one at a time and the back and top take on the radius of the brace... not ideal, probably mad, but it worked if radius dishes are a problem.

Not mad at all. I built both of my two steel strings this way, and would do it again if I didn't have dishes now.

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I'd have to look at this again, but I think in Cumpiano's book he suggests putting a guitar shaped outline of cork sheet around the edge of the workboard to hold up the edges while clamping braces to create a radiused face. I was thinking of just doing that for now to save a few bucks but will have to think about that.... i'll def be going with the go-bars tho ... have no cam clamps as yet (dang clamps are expensive - who knew?), just a few Cs, so will have to see what I can get away with & buy what's absolutely needed as I go I guess....

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If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey

Radius dishes are a "fairly new" thing to Luthierie -- They sure do make certain things easier... but they also add cost, and aren't the "Authentic" way things were done back in the day.... so they can't duplicate many old Prints...

For example -- Neither the Cumpiano book, nor the MacRostie dread have the top or back made to a true "Spherical Dome"... Certain braces are left flat, while others were curved..... On the Old Martins and Gibsons, the braces were glued to the flat plate by "Springing" the braces into the plate (Usually on a flat surface.)... whereas Cumpiano uses a system more like the Spanish solera. The shape this makes isn't actually anything close to a Dome...

Then... the rims.... Back in the day, the Top of the rim was usually sanded flat, and the bottom of the rims was profiled into a triangle-sort of shape to take the back with its heavily curved braces... Then, the top or back was clamped to the rims with a million clamps. Once again, it was never sanded to fit a true "Dome" back in the day.

There is nothing wrong with using an available Radius dish to shape the braces that are supposed to be curved, or with using a radius dish to sand rims or assemble the top and back... just be aware that putting a true "Radius" on something that was supposed to be flat can cause problems with alignment at final assembly. Sanding rims into a true Dome where they were meant to be sanded flat or into some other shape can also cause weird alignment problems... If you do decide to do all your fitting and sanding into a spherical dome.... Be prepared to do quite a bit of work at the end hand fitting all the various pieces and parts so they line up properly so that your action is right...

Thanks

John

John .... you're not making this sound any easier!!!

I guess I will wait until my MacRostie plans arrive, take a good long look at those, then read that part of Campiano again more closely as well as everything else I can find on point, then think hard about the pros and cons of dishes over another method for a long long time, before finally flipping a coin.

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If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey

Just took a pretty good look through those links Todd, and they are fantastic! Will be coming back to those again soon ...

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If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey

Al-
The arching/radius for the back is not a problem, no matter what construction method you are using- so you can go ahead and make a 15' radius template and think about making a radius dish to suit.

Steve Senseney's .pdf templates are at http://www.mimf.com/library/radii.pdf

John (truckjohn) brings up some good points. If you make a side view drawing of your guitar (arched) soundboard, with the bridge/saddle height and fingerboard, you will see that you need to 'mate' the (usually) flat underside of the fingerboard to the soundboard, at the right angle to get decent string height over the fingerboard and above the soundboard (since this is tied into the bridge thickness and saddle height).
There isn't much mystery to this, but it seems to cause a lot of problems for people who try to just 'follow the cookbook'.
Also, the flatter the arch on the soundboard, the less dramatic the 'problem' becomes.

There's lots of info about this here at the OLF. If you buy/borrow a copy of the GAL BigRedBook Vol4, there's an excellent article by Ervin Somoygi on pg 394-99 which deals with neck angle (as well as other neck construction topics).

Cheers
John

Thanks John - grabbed that .pdf & will get it printed. I get the issue anyway now, so will be sure to keep a careful eye on the meeting of the boards:)

Thanks again guys for all the great info - much appreciated!

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If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey

If I didn't have radius dishes and an outside form, the first thing I would do would be to make them again.

Making radius dishes is messy, but it's really very simple. Certainly compared to the rest of guitar construction. Ditto molds. Costs for a pair of dishes and a mold: less than 40 bucks worth of MDF (Ply is too expensive here, and there's little advantage). This minimal cost is more than offset by time savings.

IMO it's simply a better way to build if you're making 'sperically' dished guitars, and even if you're doing some sort of hybrid (like a flatter upper transverse, for example). Dishing makes sanding the rims and linings trivially simple and provides a clean, accurate fit for gluing, and they work very well as gluing 'cauls' as well (for the back, anyway).

It's not 'vintage correct', but I don't build replicas, so I really don't care in the slightest.

I'll get some MDF & start making a couple dishes and a mold will be building go-bar deck & bending form/base as well ... maybe a jig or two ... should start getting to that first guitar in a year or two i suppose thanks for taking the time to pass along the tips!

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If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey

Here's the danger you are about to run into..... (Trust me on this....)

You can spend the next 2-years thinking about building, tooling up, building jigs, etc.... OR.. You can just start building a guitar on your kitchen table.

I recommend the Latter..... Why? The goal is to end up with a GUITAR -- not to build all that other stuff... That other stuff is there to help you accomplish the task of building multiple guitars more consistently.... Consistency isn't a problem on #1 -- because you have never built one before.... so you have nothing to be Consistent with....

You look into the Stew Mac catalog and on here and decide you can't build a guitar without $10,000.00 worth of expensive tools, jigs, and fixtures.... It just isn't true.... They are helpful, but certainly not necessary.... For example.. Make a jig or buy a tool once you get to a particular step and find you can't do without that particular tool.... You will be surprised to find that there is a way around almost every specialized tool and jig except for a very basic set...

So.. On the radius dish or go-bar deck.. By the time you figure out how to build one, get all the templates and supplies together, and pay for the $25.00 sandpaper disk... you could have already gotten your braces shaped with a hand plane and sandpaper stick... and then glued to the plates with some clamps and a few more sticks...

Personally.. I vote that you should start building. When you get to a step where you think you might need a big complicated jig or super specialized tool... look at the Cumpiano book and see if you really do...

Thanks

John

I agree. No need for a 'mini-factory'.... there's a lot of "I saw this in the Martin factory, so I built one for myself..."

Check out some of the 'older' instruction books from the 70s, or look at the B&W pics of the workshops of famous makers for some inspiration!

I do like my go-bar deck, though......
John

My plan all along has been to buy what I need as I go for the most part, just getting stuff that I will obviously need beforehand. Clamps being something I need more of ... then I started looking at how much it'd cost to buy a shedload of cam clamps, bar clamps, cs etc etc .... and figured go-bars could be the way to go. so the go bar deck. and the radius dishes i figured would compliment that for gluing braces etc... maybe keep it simple with a few strips of cork ... (?)

was going to just rig a bar and a torch for sides ... but then figured i'm going to build a few guitars to the same specs to start i figger, and don't want to really snap a bunch of sides, so the bending form might be worth building ... altho bending with a bar is probably something worth learning in and of itself as well I guess ... so maybe i should just go back to that idea.

the outside form looks pretty useful if you're going to be using the radius dishes for the clamping deck anyway i thought as well ... but maybe that is starting to get to be too much plywood work, not enough guitar ...

other miscellaneous jigs i don't really have planned out yet, but just figured i'd need to figure a few things out along the way on that one.

also realize i have to start practicing putting some good edges on the old tools i've acquired to start hacking at the wood with, and maybe i should just focus on that and start working on the guitar wood before cutting up too much ply. so many decisions ... ah well, meanwhile my tonewood is acclimatizing more

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If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey

If you are going to make an outside mold, you could consider using the mold halves to bend your sides in, as shown in this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDQs4rnLbZU
This works particularly well if you have bandsawn your mold from a solid glue-up and have the 'core' to use as well.
That's how I bend sides now - if you want to buy my Fox-type bending machine, send me a pm.
In either case you will need a heating blanket (contact JohnHall @Bluescreek).
An iron (pipe and torch or pipe and heat gun) is cheaper, but a blanket and a form is a lot less frustrating. (I've done both; the iron is still handy for doing a binding strip or correcting a bend, etc..).

Cheers
John

how to bend a side without ever needing to take your smoke outta your mouth ... he does make it look easy!

ah i dunno what to do (don't have a bandsaw btw, was going to use jigsaw/router etc for the slices) ... i'll shoot you a pm on that bender, but i was thinking more along the lines of an 'el-cheapo' bender using a few bulbs for heat rather than one o them fancy blankets to start out - something like this: http://www.lint.org/TechNotes/lowcostbender.html

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If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey