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heel carving with table saw
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=27472		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  sprouseod [ Wed May 19, 2010 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  heel carving with table saw
I came across this a while back and have seen it mentioned here a few times. I was curious if someone could give a description of how it was done?

Thanks
Richard
Author:  Rene [ Wed May 19, 2010 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
William Cumpiano has a good article on cutting a classical heel with a tablesaw. I would never try this myself, I'm scared of that spinning blade.

http://www.cumpiano.com/classicneckblan ... neckb2.htm

René
Author:  Kelby [ Wed May 19, 2010 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
A tablesaw blade will cut sideways, provided the material only touches the side of the teeth, never the "non-tooth" part of the blade.

The problem with this approach is that it leaves no room for error. If you mis-estimate the blade height relative to the amount of material to be cut, the blade will throw the neck at you at a speed that you never imagined possible. It WILL do serious damage.

I'm pretty comfortable with a tablesaw, and I've made these kinds of cuts back in the day. I don't do it anymore. There's just too many ways it can end badly. There are many safer ways to do the same thing.
Author:  Kelby [ Wed May 19, 2010 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
BTW, in that second picture, is that a brim of a baseball cap in the top half of the picture? If so, let's all try to guess where that guy would get hit if he got some kickback on that tablesaw . . . .

Now, let's guess whether a guitar neck that is tablesaw-kickbacked at your face from a very close distance would hit you with more, less, or about the same amount of force as a baseball bat . . . .
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Wed May 19, 2010 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
And the sharp corners and edges!!! wow7-eyes
Author:  Bill Higgs [ Wed May 19, 2010 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
It is a little less scary if you use a fretting sled (Hana Lima Ia).
Author:  MRS [ Thu May 20, 2010 1:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
Is that the brim of your baseball cap 4 inches from the blade?
Author:  Mark A Thorpe [ Thu May 20, 2010 6:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
Don't anyone try this. It never ceases to amaze me the dumb things you see people do. That, is a sure fire way to get a trip to the emergency room. Table saws are not meant for freehand cutting.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Thu May 20, 2010 7:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
Back when I worked construction we used to freehand stuff with a skill saw. Lots of guys made trips to the ER for stitches too.

Anytime the brim of your cap is that close to an unguarded blade you are definitely in the danger zone. Not something I'd do. I still have all ten fingers but I've had a hell of a lot stitches in my hands too.
Author:  sprouseod [ Thu May 20, 2010 7:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
MRS wrote:
Is that the brim of your baseball cap 4 inches from the blade?


This isn't me, just a pic I pulled off another site

Richard
Author:  John A [ Thu May 20, 2010 7:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
I tried this as a test - I liked it and it worked great - but after seeing all the accidents with table saws, having a crappy contractor saw, and general fear (respect) for the machine - I found it much easier, safer, and just as fast to do this with a chisel.
Author:  Mark A Thorpe [ Thu May 20, 2010 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
Yea, I have seen a lot of guys get stitches on a construction site. I am a carpenter and I have had quite a few stitches myself, but not from a skill saw. I did see one guy have a momentary lapse of reason and cut his finger off trying to cut a wedge from a small block of wood. Saws are nothing to play with.
Author:  Mark Groza [ Thu May 20, 2010 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
Not worth loosing your fingers for!
Author:  Laurent Brondel [ Thu May 20, 2010 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
It doesn't need to be dangerous if clamping the neck blank on a crosscut sled and using stops. I would use a dado stack instead of a single blade though.
However, personally I can carve the heel faster with chisel and rasp than setting everything up on the tablesaw. Besides the fact that it limits the heel curve shape to the tablesaw blade's diameter.
Author:  Tim L [ Thu May 20, 2010 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
Don't worry too much about the bill of the cap. Guy is extremley near sighted and forgot his glasses. [uncle]

The older I get the more I realize how much I dislike Emergency Rooms. Plus they are unaffordable these days.

Mark, I like that flyer. Hope you don't mind I downloaded that flyer. Deserves a place on the wall above my bench.

Tim
Author:  Link Van Cleave [ Thu May 20, 2010 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
What he is doing looks more dangerous than it is. It is easy to have a emotional response to it. What he is doing is not a common or usual use of a table saw so it looks dangerous. I wouldn't recomend it to novices or anyone for that matter if you don't understand the forces and or aren't comfortable with a process. I can apreciate the healthy respect for a table saw that has been shown and I hope that extends to the more common uses of the table saw that have the potential for bad things to happpen. Ripping which is one of the most common tasks done on a table saw can be very dangerous. The right techniques and proper understanding of the tool and it's use will reduce but not eliminate the risks. It is easy to get cavalier about common practises on the table saw but that is obviouly not a good idea.
The dado stack idea would be more dangerous and would with out a doubt need a sled. Notice he is using a thin kerf blade. This will result in less "grab". As was mentioned a sled would make things a lot more comfortable. The way he is cutting he is using the down hill side of the blade so to speak so the forces are down and back not up and out as has been suggested. Also kick back needs a piece to pinch somehow and that is not likely to happen in this scenario. Ripping without a splitter and a push stick is much more dangerous as your hands end up past the blade and the forces are trying to pull you back into the blade. I think he should have his one hand on the neck a little farther away but pictures can for-shorten things and make it look dicey-er than it is. Not to take this lightly or be cavalier but I don't see this as horribly dangerous for a experienced and aware table saw operator. Also he may have wasted most of the wood with a sled or a jig before nibbling the last away. I would hope so and recommend that approach. All that said carving is so much fun and satisfying, less noise, dust and stress, more intimate contact with the wood and very fast in the right hands. Even if it isn't fast who cares if it is fun and satisfying.

Sharp chisels can be quite dangerous as well. I have some nice steri-strips stuck down with tincture of benzoin on my thumb right now. :(
Link
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu May 20, 2010 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
Link Van Cleave wrote:
Sharp chisels can be quite dangerous as well. I have some nice steri-strips stuck down with tincture of benzoin on my thumb right now. :(
Link


I bet it's the dull ones that end up causing the most injuries!
Author:  Link Van Cleave [ Thu May 20, 2010 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
Waddy,
I bet you are right. Forcing a dull tool is not a good idea. In my case I wasn't even using it. I just brushed my thumb across it somehow and it laid me open. It was very sharp. The super sharp cuts heal really fast if you close them up right away. Steri-stips stick down with the tincture of benzoin are the way to go. [:Y:]
Link
Author:  Tom West [ Thu May 20, 2010 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
I use this process to rough out bridge blanks wings. Does a fine job. Very little clean up.
Tom
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Thu May 20, 2010 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
Laurent Brondel wrote:
It doesn't need to be dangerous if clamping the neck blank on a crosscut sled and using stops. I would use a dado stack instead of a single blade though.


I was going to write almost the same thing. I would hold the blank by hand to a standard direction sled, using a stop. Than take multiple pass, slightly moving the blank sideways before each pass until the disired portion of the heel is carved. Flip the blank to do the same on the other side, of course.

You would get the same result while still using a table saw the way it was intended.
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Thu May 20, 2010 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
Mark A Thorpe wrote:
Don't anyone try this. It never ceases to amaze me the dumb things you see people do. That, is a sure fire way to get a trip to the emergency room. Table saws are not meant for freehand cutting.


Amen.....table saws are for when there's no safer way to accomplish something.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Thu May 20, 2010 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
Link Van Cleave wrote:
Waddy,
I bet you are right. Forcing a dull tool is not a good idea. In my case I wasn't even using it. I just brushed my thumb across it somehow and it laid me open. It was very sharp. The super sharp cuts heal really fast if you close them up right away. Steri-stips stick down with the tincture of benzoin are the way to go. [:Y:]
Link


I'm glad to know the repair procedure. I have my share of scars. The nice thing about the sharp ones is that they don't hurt much! I'm really a wimp when it comes to pain! [uncle]
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Thu May 20, 2010 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
Yeah, I hear that you can cut across the side of a table saw blade. I know an experienced cabinet maker who has one of his big toes where his right thumb used to be as a result of cutting a cove this way. I'd go repeated straight cuts with a stop. Hogging off the heel with a drawknife is what I consider to be risk-taking.

Art Overholtzer cut the heels on his classicals this way. It makes for a very narrow heel, that I think looks a little funny. Definitely would look a bit weird on a steel string.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Thu May 20, 2010 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
I wouldn't recommend this to anybody else, but I have done similar things quite often-not with my face anywhere near the blade/table, though! Yikes.
Cutting a tenon or half-lap joint by 'wasting' the wood with a series of saw cuts is the same operation, and I'm sure quite a few of us have done that at some point. I've thinned bridge wings on the tablesaw as well.

Overholtzer shows this (neck) operation in some detail in his 'unique' classical guitar construction book.
As Laurent points out, you need to match the blade diameter to the curve you want.

I did this once, and decided that it was less trouble (changing blade on saw, etc) to just do it by hand.

BTW, I don't consider cutting with the miter guide to be 'freehand' cutting-which is , of course a complete 'NO,NO!' on a tablesaw.

Cheers
John
Author:  SteveSmith [ Thu May 20, 2010 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: heel carving with table saw
When I used to use saws for a living including table and radial arm saws there used to be a lot of disagreement on what was ok or not too. I sure ain't no novice and I sure ain't interested in doing that.

I should say I ain't doing it any more because I used to do cove cuts with all the saws back in the day.
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