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Will it blend?
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=27445		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Tue May 18, 2010 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Will it blend?
...sorry, bend. I have been having a real tough time trying to get this veneer to bend. It is for a telecaster headstock and needs to be bent to that radius near the nut. I first tried to bend the veneer with the two pieces laminated, but it just de-laminated. I then tried to bend the pieces individually, which worked well but the dovetails did not follow suit. Do I need to use a spring steel slat to coax the dovetails to take the radius? Any ideas/thoughts?

Thanks
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Tue May 18, 2010 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will it blend?
You could use veneer softner.
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Tue May 18, 2010 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will it blend?
Edited with photo ^

The wood is so thin its not the bending thats the problem... its the dovetails.
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Tue May 18, 2010 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will it blend?
Edward-
I don't understand- sorry.
How thick are the veneers?
Do they bend by hand?
Is it a bending problem, or a gluing problem?
Are you using a shaped caul to press the veneers down?
The line of dovetails will run up the 'middle' of the headstock?
When you say the veneers were 'laminated', do you mean the dovetails were edge-glued, or....?
How tight is the radius on that curve?
Do you own a heating blanket?

This seems similar to gluing veneers on the back of a headstock ('backstrap') so there should be a solution.

Cheers
John
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Tue May 18, 2010 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will it blend?
Yes John, its going to be glued onto the headstock with the dovetails running down the center. The radius is a bit less than 2 inches I think. The veneers are around .065-0.75. They dont bend by hand but they bend real easy on a hot pipe. I had the dovetails glued together before and then separated when bending. I will be using a shaped caul to laminate them to the headstock but they need to be bent first. Like I said the issue is the dovetails are not taking the radius. I think a spring steel slat would help coax them into that shape... but I dont own a slat. Is there any subsitutes?
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Tue May 18, 2010 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will it blend?
Interesting problem...
I've done a few backstraps but nothing quite like this...
My inclination would be to go a bit thinner if feasible - a small difference in thickness can make a big diff. in ease of bending.
You could consider laminating a thin 'regular' veneer (or two) under the dovetailed layer.
Make up a pair of heavy shaped cauls and apply some brute force to glue up a multi-layer laminate, then apply to the guitar?

If you had a heating blanket you could just squeeze the whole sandwich.
I've used aluminum flashing to prevent breaking/blowouts when bending, but this is scoffed at by those who use spring steel. Be careful about staining your white wood with metal slats.

I'd do a bunch of tests, unless you have a spare dovetailed section....

Cheers
John
Author:  Haans [ Tue May 18, 2010 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will it blend?
Where's Howard when you need him?
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Tue May 18, 2010 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will it blend?
Haans wrote:
Where's Howard when you need him?


Good question. We need a red phone. ;)

JohnAbercrombie wrote:
Interesting problem...
I've done a few backstraps but nothing quite like this...
My inclination would be to go a bit thinner if feasible - a small difference in thickness can make a big diff. in ease of bending.
You could consider laminating a thin 'regular' veneer (or two) under the dovetailed layer.
Make up a pair of heavy shaped cauls and apply some brute force to glue up a multi-layer laminate, then apply to the guitar?

If you had a heating blanket you could just squeeze the whole sandwich.
I've used aluminum flashing to prevent breaking/blowouts when bending, but this is scoffed at by those who use spring steel. Be careful about staining your white wood with metal slats.

I'd do a bunch of tests, unless you have a spare dovetailed section....

Cheers
John


Thanks for the Ideas John. I like the thought of laminating two thinner pieces in a caul... maybe it would even work with the dovetails glued which would make things easier when laminating to the headstock.
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Wed May 19, 2010 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will it blend?
Here's what I'd try.

Glue a sheet of paper on top of the jointed dovetail veneers. The paper should hold things in place and still allow for a some flexibility to glued the veneer(s) on the headstock. Just sand the paper away once finished.

Hope this helps!
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Wed May 19, 2010 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will it blend?
Alain, thanks for the suggestion. Do you mean bend it with the paper on so the join does not come apart?
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Wed May 19, 2010 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Will it blend?
Not bending with an iron or blanket, but more just forcing it onto the headstock with some sort of a curved caul. That's what I do on the back of my steel strings headstock, which has a little curved volute similar to the top of a tele headstock.
Author:  Frank Cousins [ Thu May 20, 2010 3:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will it blend?
Apologies if this sounds like a real dumb idea...but cant you bend them and attach them individually? Bend first half and fix to the headstock then bend second (might have to play with th position of th bend a bit) andthen glue on the second? That way you will not need to worry about the the joint 'ungluing' when bending?
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Thu May 20, 2010 6:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will it blend?
Frank, I already tried that, the "body" of it bends real easy but the dovetails take no radius.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Thu May 20, 2010 7:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will it blend?
So is it that the dovetails won't bend, or the glue is delaminating when you bend these on a pipe?

I have done similar things (not dovetails) and I just use a block of wood as a stabilizing backer when I bend on a pipe and that helps both pieces bend nicely. I usually use titebond III to glue with. It seems a bit more heat resistant than normal glues.

Another thought I would try is thinning out the material further. .06 - .07 requires more time on the pipe. What if you take it to .04" or so? They will bend very fast if you thin them further and the glue joint won't get as much exposure to heat.
Author:  Alain Moisan [ Thu May 20, 2010 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will it blend?
Hey Edward, dismiss what I initially proposed. I seem to have missed the post where you mentione the veneers are .065-.075. This is way too thick to bend cold. Sorry about that.

Ok, take 2 on what I think would work.

- Glue your jointed veneers on a sheet of paper
- With a drum sander (assuming you have one), thin the veneers down to roughly .020. (Use a backer board, works fine).
- Then they should be flexible enough to force them to bend cold and glue them in place on the headstock.
- Sand/scrape away the remaining sheet of paper

Good luck and let us know how it works.
Author:  Edward Taylor [ Thu May 20, 2010 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Will it blend?
Brock, pretty much both problems.

The thing is now... the pieces in the photo are my last good ones, especially the maple. I made the dovetails a tad sloppy so that I could bend them individually and have some play to fit them together on the headstock. But on the test pieces the dovetails would not bend.

So far I think the best shot I have is with John's idea.

PS- Alain, I think thats the best chance at it... will report back with how it goes.
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