I say live dangerously and go for it.
Is it a cutaway?
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| 20th fret on classical guitar- Good idea or ....? http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=27441 |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Mon May 17, 2010 6:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | 20th fret on classical guitar- Good idea or ....? |
I'm at the 'trim the end of the fingerboard' stage on my current classical project(s) and I'm considering adding a 20th fret. On my previous (3) classical guitars I've had the fingerboard end follow the rosette edge, with 19 frets. I need some advice/input from classical players/builders, please. How desirable is the 20th fret? (I know I'll probably never use it, but...) Would a 20th fret increase or decrease the appeal of a guitar for you? (It certainly does change the appearance of the fingerboard/soundhole area...). Pros/cons?? Useful thing or affectation? Thanks John |
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| Author: | Edward Taylor [ Mon May 17, 2010 7:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 20th fret on classical guitar- Good idea or ....? |
I say live dangerously and go for it. Is it a cutaway? |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Mon May 17, 2010 9:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 20th fret on classical guitar- Good idea or ....? |
Edward Taylor wrote: I say live dangerously and go for it. Is it a cutaway? No, 'regular' classical (Rodriguez) shape. The pics show a couple of the nicer-looking implementations of a 20th that I've seen, by James Lister and Stephan Connor... Cheers John |
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| Author: | Yukon [ Tue May 18, 2010 6:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 20th fret on classical guitar- Good idea or ....? |
I curse them when wanting to reach through the soundhole for repair work or pickup installation. |
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| Author: | Elman Concepcion [ Tue May 18, 2010 8:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 20th fret on classical guitar- Good idea or ....? |
Yes. It's a Great Idea! |
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| Author: | MaxBishop [ Tue May 18, 2010 8:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 20th fret on classical guitar- Good idea or ....? |
Hi John, Please, take these comments for what they are worth. I have yet to make my first classical, only flamencos (14). However, I really like Connor's implementation. I have thought that if I ever do a 20th fret, that would be the one for me. Also, apparently there are one or more classical pieces that require that note. I read it somewhere, but cannot recall which piece. Perhaps a player can chime in here. In any event, why not give it a go? Best of luck, Max |
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| Author: | Elman Concepcion [ Tue May 18, 2010 9:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 20th fret on classical guitar- Good idea or ....? |
Yes, it adds value to the instrument. From the point of view of the player it is annoying to play the last octave C scale and have to stop at b. ![[headinwall]](./images/smilies/headbangwalluf8.gif "Mad") Also you can still keep the traditional look. Just let the fingerboard overhang the soundhole until you can add a 20th fret on the first and six string. Then, 1/4 round and bevel the underside until it meets the edge of the soundhole. Only one con for the maker. You must be careful when fretting 20th fret as you are at the edge of the ebony and it can easily break off. So for those last frets, I make sure I can press them in with just finger pressure and them fish glue them in. Click on the pic to see the frets. |
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| Author: | Ian Cunningham [ Tue May 18, 2010 9:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 20th fret on classical guitar- Good idea or ....? |
Re: fretting that last fret. You can use an itty bitty clamp for that too, use cauls of course. Just clamp the fret in piece by piece. |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Tue May 18, 2010 11:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 20th fret on classical guitar- Good idea or ....? |
Thanks for the comments and pic. Lots to think about- the access issue was one I hadn't thought about; and it certainly emphasizes the importance of keeping the projection into the soundhole at a minimum. 'How much 20th fret' also seems to be quite variable, with some doing b + e strings, others only the top e, and Elman adding 1st and 6th string (E,e) 20 fret. Elman, is this mostly for symmetry or because of musical demands? I gather that there are some Barrios pieces that require the high c note, though I've heard jazz/alternative/flamenco- style players 'plinking' notes way up in the soundhole area by just pressing on the string (kinda like double-bass players...), so perhaps if more guitars had the 20th, more music would use it.... Food for thought... Cheers John |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Tue May 18, 2010 11:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 20th fret on classical guitar- Good idea or ....? |
My answer here would be the same as over on Delcamp. I have put one on my last three, and made no other changes. It did not make a difference, that I could discern in the sound. It does add that last C as an available note. #2 Attachment: P1010877 (Large).JPG #3 Attachment: P1020342 (Large).JPG #4 Attachment: P1030450 (Large).JPG
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Tue May 18, 2010 12:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 20th fret on classical guitar- Good idea or ....? |
Waddy- Thanks for the pics. That's basically the style I was thinking about. I notice that in the 3rd pic you have a more 'square' end to the FB below the 20th- is this your 'preferred' style now? You are one of the few people that seems to visit both OLF and delcamp- sorry to trouble you with the 'double posting' ! (I did limit it to those two, though....) Cheers John |
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| Author: | Mike Collins [ Tue May 18, 2010 12:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 20th fret on classical guitar- Good idea or ....? |
For me it depends if the client wants one. Other then making it harder for sure to work through the s.h. as Yukon has stated - there is no reason not to have a 20th. There is more & more music being written for that note now that it's available on some guitars. It does not lessen the value of a guitar at all. Do not let someone try & convience you that it does. Mike |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Tue May 18, 2010 1:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 20th fret on classical guitar- Good idea or ....? |
I didn't re-type my prior response to John's post at Delcamp, but I was asked to try it, so I did. I really like the look. I don't use the note, except to try it out. Certainly not in any piece I can play!  John, I can still get my hand in the soundhole, with a 20th, though it is not easy. I have a hard time getting it in without one too. I have to squeeze my hand with my other hand to get it in there. Once in, I can't do much. I have pretty big hands (6' 4" and 250#). However, I like small bodied guitars, for some reason. |
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| Author: | Elman Concepcion [ Tue May 18, 2010 1:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 20th fret on classical guitar- Good idea or ....? |
" is this mostly for symmetry or because of musical demands?" Yes, John - Only for Symmetry and to keep the traditional look. The Last C on the 6th string sounds horrible. I've never heard a guitar that can make that note sound good. So, no composer in their right mind would try writing for it. At Least I hope not. |
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| Author: | JohnAbercrombie [ Tue May 18, 2010 3:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 20th fret on classical guitar- Good idea or ....? |
Elman Concepcion wrote: Yes, John - Only for Symmetry and to keep the traditional look. The Last C on the 6th string sounds horrible. I've never heard a guitar that can make that note sound good. So, no composer in their right mind would try writing for it. At Least I hope not.  Seriously, you did succeed in keeping the traditional look- very nice! Thanks for the pic and the comments! Cheers John |
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| Author: | douglas ingram [ Tue May 18, 2010 6:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 20th fret on classical guitar- Good idea or ....? |
I've put on the extra fret on a number of my instruments. I can't play anything that requires it, but maybe someday somebody will own my guitars who can. Plus, I like how it looks! I make mine Selmer style. I have smaller hands, getting them in with the extra fret is no problem. |
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